Hearthstone

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Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
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Even if you do play it "technically perfect" You can not know for sure if what you did was the correct move or not unless you know what is in your opponent's hand. Playing your hand technically perfect is one thing, but it is another thing entirely playing the board perfectly since you can decide if you want to attack minions or your opponent's hero. Example being earlier when someone said they would have traded with the water elemental in Artosis' position. The safe play is to trade with the water elemental because you do not what kind of removal your opponent has in their hand. You go to their face and they use a card from their hand to remove it next turn, well now you don't have a minion while theirs is still on the board when you had the chance to remove it. It worked out for artosis in the end, but in his position you can't say one way or the other this is the absolute correct way to play.
Everything you said is true BUT technically perfect play means you also calculated the mathematical odds that X cards are in your opponent's hand versus Y cards and played to the one with mathematically higher odds. You might still lose in a single game instance but over time if you do this your win rate will be higher, hence technically perfect.

Also, everything you said is also true to a much greater degree in MTG, because MTG has instant-speed effects and more complex on-board interactions.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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Finally went 9-1 in an arena, but I don't think it counts. I drafted 8 mind controls and 6 SW:p to keep me alive till I could use them.

There really needs to be some kind of limit like in constructed.
The fact that you had 8 8cc spells and won amazes me, even if they were mind control.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
The fact that you had 8 8cc spells and won amazes me, even if they were mind control.
There were some close games, but SW:p mostly kept the board clear. My one loss was to a Rogue who played nothing but minions that spawned other minions. If I'd had a Holy Nova or something it would have been fine.
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
Everything you said is true BUT technically perfect play means you also calculated the mathematical odds that X cards are in your opponent's hand versus Y cards and played to the one with mathematically higher odds. You might still lose in a single game instance but over time if you do this your win rate will be higher, hence technically perfect.

Also, everything you said is also true to a much greater degree in MTG, because MTG has instant-speed effects and more complex on-board interactions.
Exactly, no doubt, just saying it isn't all luck of the draw.
 

drtyrm

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,991
155
Mist, which MtG pro's do this sort of math? I know it's done via pot odds in poker, but the deck is a known quantity of 52 cards. Maybe in Top 8s when you have your opponents decklist available.
 

Valishar

Molten Core Raider
766
424
Most people in M:tG play proven decklists in tournaments. So for the most part they can study the metagame and know the full main 60 cards of most decks they will face.

Not true of course for draft/sealed.
 

Crone

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
9,714
3,211
Now that Blizzcon is over, did anyone post up anywhere the deck lists that were used? I can only imagine at this point Artosis' Paladin deck is all the rage in Play mode?
 

Salshun_sl

shitlord
1,003
0
Most people in M:tG play proven decklists in tournaments. So for the most part they can study the metagame and know the full main 60 cards of most decks they will face.

Not true of course for draft/sealed.
Keep in mind it's been YEARS since I played table version of MtG, I seem to remember anyone that whipped out some awesome deck that was just destroying found half their shit banned with the quickness in tournament play. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but from what I recall OP decks didn't survive long as official.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
I like his Priest deck actually. Also the rush-to-kill first Mage deck is pretty interesting. Debating if I should craft a legendary or not, I have enough dust for one and Rag is used in so many top-end decks.
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
<Gold Donor>
31,197
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Not enough people playing venture co mercenary. If they kill it, oh well, it's drawback doesn't effect you and you got one of their removal spells. If they don't kill it, they're fucking dead.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
14,071
6,775
Yeah, venture co mercenary wins games. Decks really struggle to deal with pretty much any 4drop creature followed by the mercenary.
 

ronne

Nǐ hǎo, yǒu jīn zi ma?
8,257
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Venture Co. is close to my highest priority pick in arenas for sure. Constructed I often find I just don't have room for him.
 

Dandai

<WoW Guild Officer>
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To all of you that want Hearthstone to have the complexity of Magic: they had many, many more mechanics (not as many as Magic, but they were largely from Magic) when they were prototyping Hearthstone. They talk about it a lot in their Hearthstone Fireside Chat from Blizzcon; they have screenshots, examples, and feedback from the early prototypes.

At the end of the day they removed everything that made the game arduous and broke up the back-and-forth of the game. They wanted a game that was 5-10 minutes per session, and didn't take an encyclopedia to understand. They also wanted to target a much broader audience - a game foreveryone.

I think they nailed those design goals, and while there certainly are improvements to be made with the social components, the overall game is better than "good enough." I look forward to see where they end up taking the solo adventures and expansions.

Edit: Here's an example. I don't play magic but someone said there's a mechanic that interrupts the opponent's turn on certain actions? They had this in Hearthstone in the form of "Combat Tricks." They said it felt shitty and was very jarring. It broke up the flow of the game and nobody liked it, so they scrapped it.

rrr_img_49125.jpg
 

Mist

REEEEeyore
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It's not that I want this game to be like MTG, it's just that people are asking why this can't be a serious competitive game, and I'm telling them why.

They chose to make a game with a very small subset of the possible interactions you can have in a game like this, and because of that, it will never be a particularly competitive game.

It's still really fun, and it's basically free, which is a huge advantage over MTGO. I think when people get bored of this game and start looking for something more complex, it will be a big benefit to MTGO if Wizards can capitalize on it.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
Don't think the odds of Wizards doing anything like that are very high. As a company they have missed a lot of good opportunities.

Also the original MTG in Alpha wasn't much more complex. It was more complex, but not a lot. But as far as being competitive goes, Hearthstone is shiny and completely digital, makes it easily accessible, especially since anyone can download it and start playing for free. Being less complex also means being easier to understand for spectators watching the game, spectators are generally good for an esport. Now whether it is too simple to maintain the interest of spectators long term, only time will tell.

What is the shortest game anyone has experienced so far? I just got perhaps the luckiest draw ever with my Mage deck and had a turn 3 kill with a 7/3 Mana Wyrm at the end. Coin really shouldn't count as a spell I think.
 

Araxen

Golden Baronet of the Realm
10,447
7,840
Anyone else hate playing against Priests? Holy shit they make me rage way too easily. I can play against any other class but man Priests... fuck em. Yes, I'm not sober when I post this but fuck Priests.

If you want to friend me though it's Araxen.1172
 

Elerion

N00b
735
46
I don't play magic but someone said there's a mechanic that interrupts the opponent's turn on certain actions?
Here's the slightly inaccurate TL;DR. Spells, creatures and abilities in MTG can be "normal speed", or they can be "instant". Normal speed cards are played roughly like in Hearthstone - on your turn, before or after you attack. Instant cards, however, can be played at any time, in response to any other action. If you play an instant in response to another action, the instant occurs first (but another instant can be played in response to that, etc).

This allows for board position to change at any time, you never know if an action is safe, unless you know what your opponent has in hand. It massively increases the complexity of any decision.

The downside is that it bogs the game down. After every single action, you must ask your opponent if he wants to respond before you proceed.

Like Mist said, Hearthstone devs have obviously decided that they would rather have a fast paced, easier game. That's fine, the game is fun. However, through that decision, the complexity is reduced so much that the game becomes less suited as a professional competitive game, since there are far fewer opportunities to outplay your opponent.

Note: The less obvious downside of Hearthstone's design decision is that it limits how powerful your cards can be in certain respects, and thus it limits deck variety. Unleash the Hounds, for example. The card is interesting and allows for a fun archetype to exist, but it will be nerfed because there is no good way to counter a single turn kill in Hearthstone. In Magic, instant abilities would allow you to do that. For example, Blue could counterspell the key spells, Red could cast instant damage spells to neuter the attack, White and Green could play "no damage this turn" spells, Black could make you discard key components of the combo. This would allow the deck type to exist, thus causing a broader and more interesting metagame.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,320
11,613
yeah. there has GOT to be a better solution.

The completely one sided turns in hearthstone just feel flat. Feels like something is missing. on the other hand, yeah, constantly having to check is very time consuming.