Hearthstone

Face hunter sucks! Nerf it!

*deck comes along that beats face hunter*

New deck sucks! Nerf it!

-this forum

Its not just this forum, hell you have people quoting one of the most famous pros saying it needs to be nerfed. Keeping the hunters in check is a good thing, but its also contributed to a massive rise in handlock. I like playing handlock so its cool but playing against them does suck, at least hunter games are nearly always over fast.

Well, I think that's what a lot of people are expecting will happen. At the pace Blizzard works, I doubt they'll change it anytime soon but if they do then yeah, that's the effect I'd bet on.

Famm_sl said:

Its not just this forum, hell you have people quoting one of the most famous pros saying it needs to be nerfed. Keeping the hunters in check is a good thing, but its also contributed to a massive rise in handlock. I like playing handlock so its cool but playing against them does suck, at least hunter games are nearly always over fast.

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"As is the case with most cards that are completely broken... Given that the drawback on Fel Reaver basically doesn't exist in 99% of games, I'd say that this 5 mana 8/8 is a pretty efficient creature. This is the best card in the set for aggressive decks..."

-Reynad regarding Fel Reaver

Fel Reaver actually did see play for a day... then everyone was running Boom. Even agro decks. So everyone was running BGH and in a meta where nearly everyone runs at least one BGH, Fel Reaver is awful.

Reynad being wrong about Fel Reaver has nothing to do with his opinions on a different card or a deck. Plenty of people are wrong about cards before they actually hit the live game, from pros on down to posters on forums.

The Master_sl said:

Fel Reaver actually did see play for a day... then everyone was running Boom. Even agro decks. So everyone was running BGH and in a meta where nearly everyone runs at least one BGH, Fel Reaver is awful.

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When was the last 7+ power creature you played that didn't eat an immediate BGH? It's totally hilarious.

Mech shaman, which is a completely viable ladder deck, still runs Fel Reaver. I used it to finish getting my shaman to 60 a couple weeks ago. And he wasn't far off, if Dr Boom hadn't made BGH a staple of 90% of the decks in the format, Fel Reaver would absolutely be a common inclusion in aggro decks.

As for this tripe

Alexzander_sl said:

Face hunter sucks! Nerf it!

*deck comes along that beats face hunter*

New deck sucks! Nerf it!

-this forum

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If you don't think Grim Patron is imbalanced, you're absolutely crazy. The only real question is, is it imbalanced enough to need a nerf? It's not as bad as pre-Leeroy nerf Miracle was, but it's definitely better than post Leeroy miracle, and post-Leeroy miracle was still strong enough to get Auctioneer nerfed.

As for Thaurissan, his inclusion in freeze mage is really all the proof you need of how overpowered he is. This is a deck that runs nothing but disposable creatures and Alex. Since your opponent won't have to waste their removal on your early creatures, there is probably a 95% chance you only get a single turn out of Thaurissan in freeze mage. That single turn of mana cheating is so strong that he made the cut into a deck with a relatively inflexible decklist.

Patron is the new Miracle Rogue so I expect it to get nerfed (I don't think it should be fwiw). Rogue was better at cycling Warrior is better at stalling. Blizz doesn't like those types of decks, they want it to be about board presence after all.

::EDIT:: Gavin beat me to it and said it better, but point stands that it is a deck archetype they don't like and it may be too consistent against all decks.

Famm_sl said:

Reynad being wrong about Fel Reaver has nothing to do with his opinions on a different card or a deck. Plenty of people are wrong about cards before they actually hit the live game, from pros on down to posters on forums.

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That is the thing, though. He wasn't wrong about the card, he just didn't know that the Dr. Boom meta would force BGH to be an auto-include in every non-aggro deck. If there ever comes a day that BGH stops being as well represented, Fel Reaver will start being included again in aggro decks.

Arch_sl said:

Patron is the new Miracle Rogue so I expect it to get nerfed (I don't think it should be fwiw). Rogue was better at cycling Warrior is better at stalling. Blizz doesn't like those types of decks, they want it to be about board presence after all.

::EDIT:: Gavin beat me to it and said it better, but point stands that it is a deck archetype they don't like and it may be too consistent against all decks.

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Which is the whole reason I will never put any serious time or effect into the game beyond my casual fun. Forcing a certain game style on players is shitty imo. But at least I can fuck around with mill druid still for fun.

Derpa_sl said:

Which is the whole reason I will never put any serious time or effect into the game beyond my casual fun. Forcing a certain game style on players is shitty imo. But at least I can fuck around with mill druid still for fun.

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Except combo decks like freeze mage or inner fire priest are fair, and allow your opponent chances to interact with you and interfere with the combo. Decks like leeroy miracle and patron give you minimal chance to interact with them and basically no response to the combo.

All because of charge.

Gavinmad_sl said:

Except combo decks like freeze mage or inner fire priest are fair, and allow your opponent chances to interact with you and interfere with the combo. Decks like leeroy miracle and patron give you minimal chance to interact with them and basically no response to the combo.

All because of charge.

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It is not just because of charge, its because of multiple design choices they made that lets it happen.

The game design is sooo strange. It is a casual game, that has a steep curve for casuals. And it's a tournament game with a low skill cap for tournament players with no tournament support in the client itself...

Yet the game is one of the top money makers right now. So that tells me that Hearthstone will never get any better because why should Blizzard ever care when they can just release another 60 cards every 4-6 months ,and make even more money.

I was listening to a podcast recently on Esports in general, and Hearthstone is considered such an awful joke compared to everything else. Yet Hearthstone's viewer numbers are some of the highest.

In my opinion the game will just follow the same trend it has since we were playing in Alpha. They release un tested content with ridiculous decisions then the community gets it nerfed, then the process starts all over again.

I wish Hearthstone could be a really good game because It's UI is very enjoyable, but I have no faith that Blizzard will ever make this game even halfway good otherwise they would have hired the people breaking their game constantly to try help them with card decisions before they launch them into the wild.

Famm_sl said:

Reynad being wrong about Fel Reaver has nothing to do with his opinions on a different card or a deck. Plenty of people are wrong about cards before they actually hit the live game, from pros on down to posters on forums.

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Posting "Pro X thinks this card should be nerfed so let's nerf this card!" is simply not a valid argument. Pros are subject to all the same biases as we are. It may be that they don't like the deck, don't like playing against it, lose to it a lot, or simply don't like said playstyle. Want to have a serious discussion about nerfing a deck/card? Post data based on a mature state of meta. Simply whining about a card being good doesn't really get anyone anywhere.

Gavinmad_sl said:

Mech shaman, which is a completely viable ladder deck, still runs Fel Reaver.


If you don't think Grim Patron is imbalanced, you're absolutely crazy. The only real question is, is it imbalanced enough to need a nerf? It's not as bad as pre-Leeroy nerf Miracle was, but it's definitely better than post Leeroy miracle, and post-Leeroy miracle was still strong enough to get Auctioneer nerfed.

As for Thaurissan, his inclusion in freeze mage is really all the proof you need of how overpowered he is.


Except combo decks like freeze mage or inner fire priest are fair, and allow your opponent chances to interact with you and interfere with the combo. Decks like leeroy miracle and patron give you minimal chance to interact with them and basically no response to the combo.

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1) The good version of mech shaman doesn't and hasn't. It also hasn't been particularly relevant in the meta since winter.

2) Auctioneer was nerfed post leeroy not due to charge combo shenanigans, but due to spare parts.

3) Freeze mage was all but a dead archetype before emp. Putting emp in freeze mage makes perfect sense and in itself doesn't mean the card is broken.

4) Priest can do 16 damage out of hand with 4 card charge combo at a similar mana cost as the other OTK decks. It isn't any more "fair" than any of the other combo decks, it just not as reliable.

5) Charge/patron/miracle stuff: Patron warrior needs more cards to do less damage than the pre nerf leeroy combo. It plays a control game a lot more than miracle ever did. You often seen big patron plays to clear board, not ignore it. I don't really know how you can claim that patron is no a non-interactive deck.

...


Look, there are a number of different types of people that play competitive games. Two of them are: 1) people that try to win based on the tools they have 2) people that try to get everything they don't like nerfed.

Alexzander_sl said:

1) The good version of mech shaman doesn't and hasn't. It also hasn't been particularly relevant in the meta since winter.

2) Auctioneer was nerfed post leeroy not due to charge combo shenanigans, but due to spare parts.

3) Freeze mage was all but a dead archetype before emp. Putting emp in freeze mage makes perfect sense and in itself doesn't mean the card is broken.

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1) Completely talking out of your ass. I just checked on 4 random mech shaman deck lists from the Viagame House Cup #3, and all 4 lists run double fel reaver. Savjz ladder mech shaman list (which was the only ladder list I could find after a brief search) also runs double fel reaver.

2) This is pure speculation on your part

Gadgetzan Auctioneer now costs 6 (up from 5)
Gadgetzan Auctioneer's ability allows for a player to potentially draw many cards for little cost. Card draw and card advantage are important to the game-overall, games are less interesting when a player draws their entire deck. This change brings Gadgetzan Auctioneer's cost more in line with its power level.

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Didn't say anything about spare parts. What is a fact though, is that Miracle had survived the Leeroy nerf and the introduction of Loatheb to the card pool, and was still a very dominant deck in the metagame, until they took the additional step of nerfing Gadgetzan.

3) Freeze mage doesn't run creatures unless they're disposable, or part of the setup for the win (Alex, Maly/Antonidas). The fact that they run a card strictly to benefit just once from it's end of turn effect, suggests that the card is overpowered. Hell, Freeze Mage itself was, as you said, mostly a dead archetype, so why is it suddenly back in the metagame? Could it be because one single overpowered card suddenly makes it viable again?