Home Improvement

Picasso3 · Jan 19, 2020

GuardianX said:
Is it common for a gas water-heater to be 50 amped?

Heating for this home is mostly gas aside from Oven and dryer, which the dryer has the option for gas but isn't connected.

If it's gas then it's prob 0 amped and if you have gas you shouldn't have electric aux heat.

Might make sure it's wired to something. Inspectors will comment you can't have a breaker always off and if you remove one you have a whole in the panel so leaving them in place and on when connected to nothing happens.

For grounding your electric service provider may have requirements. I had to install 2 rods spacerd 8' apart and connect them with a single solid core wire.

So is this your main panel and it doesn't have a main breaker?

BrutulTM · Jan 19, 2020

Unless you have a huge water heater, even an electric one wouldn't need 50 amps. A gas water heater wouldn't need electricity for anything except electronic controls and the igniter. The old gas water heaters with pilot lights didn't have electricity running to them at all. I haven't used a gas water heater in a long time but I assume nothing uses pilot lights anymore.

Maybe a previous owner had a 240 outlet in the garage to run a big air compressor or a welder or something? You could pull the cover off of the panel and at least see if there's wires connected to it. If there's not that frees up some valuable real estate in your panel although the best plan would be a new panel as Picasso said. Definitely looks like that one is really old or wasn't put in by professionals.

iannis · Jan 19, 2020

Why aren't you allowed to have a spacing breaker? If it's not wired to anything... Is the problem it just becomes confusing for the next guy that has to work on it?

They want it a flat metal facing instead?

GuardianX · Jan 19, 2020

Picasso3 said:
If it's gas then it's prob 0 amped and if you have gas you shouldn't have electric aux heat.

Might make sure it's wired to something. Inspectors will comment you can't have a breaker always off and if you remove one you have a whole in the panel so leaving them in place and on when connected to nothing happens.

For grounding your electric service provider may have requirements. I had to install 2 rods spacerd 8' apart and connect them with a single solid core wire.

So is this your main panel and it doesn't have a main breaker?

Yerp.

Potato quality, I'll try and get a cleaner one.

I'll try and get a better picture in a second.

GuardianX · Jan 19, 2020

Borzak said:
Does seem kind of high for gas. I have an electric and it's 50amp. I looked just the other day to turn it off to drain it. All you are powering is a few electronics and the blower.

Picasso3 said:
If it's gas then it's prob 0 amped and if you have gas you shouldn't have electric aux heat.

Might make sure it's wired to something. Inspectors will comment you can't have a breaker always off and if you remove one you have a whole in the panel so leaving them in place and on when connected to nothing happens.

For grounding your electric service provider may have requirements. I had to install 2 rods spacerd 8' apart and connect them with a single solid core wire.

So is this your main panel and it doesn't have a main breaker?

BrutulTM said:
Unless you have a huge water heater, even an electric one wouldn't need 50 amps. A gas water heater wouldn't need electricity for anything except electronic controls and the igniter. The old gas water heaters with pilot lights didn't have electricity running to them at all. I haven't used a gas water heater in a long time but I assume nothing uses pilot lights anymore.

Maybe a previous owner had a 240 outlet in the garage to run a big air compressor or a welder or something? You could pull the cover off of the panel and at least see if there's wires connected to it. If there's not that frees up some valuable real estate in your panel although the best plan would be a new panel as Picasso said. Definitely looks like that one is really old or wasn't put in by professionals.

---
Left side

Right side

Neutral bar, which looks to be doubling as a grounding bar....yay...

Yellow cap looks like it went to the position marked "N/A".

Another picture of the "No Clue" wires...they tuck...under(?)....the fucking breaker.

Picasso3 · Jan 19, 2020

Combination neutral and ground are fine at the main panel, they should be separated at a sub panel.

The mystery 50a may be some rig job to substitute as a main breaker? Beyond me but it looks like it's hooked straight to the bus bar (eg if you unscrew them from the breaker they are still going to be live)

Found this:

Split Bus Electrical Panels-No Main Breaker. - Charles Buell Consulting LLC

Doesn’t the Electrical Service Panel HAVE to have a Main Disconnect Breaker?” The simple answer to this question is, “No—Probably not.” Because most electrical service panels are NOT installed by homeowners or “Uncle Harry,” it is actually pretty rare to find a main panel without a main...

www.buellinspections.com

Doesn't look as bad I expected -- your wires appear in good shape and not some 1940s cloth bullshit that's cracking off. Since it's exterior and i'm assuming you have clear access to all the wires coming it you may get some surprisingly good quotes on a replacement.

The fundamental key to operating in a typical breaker box is you have those two big wires up top that are always hot you avoid then a main breaker and once you turn that off you can safely work anywhere in the box besides at the two main lugs. I don't think that works here so not messing with it is a good choice on your part.

Is that mass of stranded copper towards the bottom every grounding circuit from the house?

GuardianX · Jan 19, 2020

Picasso3 said:
Combination neutral and ground are fine at the main panel, they should be separated at a sub panel.

The mystery 50a may be some rig job to substitute as a main breaker? Beyond me but it looks like it's hooked straight to the bus bar (eg if you unscrew them from the breaker they are still going to be live)

Found this:

Split Bus Electrical Panels-No Main Breaker. - Charles Buell Consulting LLC

Doesn’t the Electrical Service Panel HAVE to have a Main Disconnect Breaker?” The simple answer to this question is, “No—Probably not.” Because most electrical service panels are NOT installed by homeowners or “Uncle Harry,” it is actually pretty rare to find a main panel without a main...

www.buellinspections.com

Doesn't look as bad I expected -- your wires appear in good shape and not some 1940s cloth bullshit that's cracking off. Since it's exterior and i'm assuming you have clear access to all the wires coming it you may get some surprisingly good quotes on a replacement.

The fundamental key to operating in a typical breaker box is you have those two big wires up top that are always hot you avoid then a main breaker and once you turn that off you can safely work anywhere in the box besides at the two main lugs. I don't think that works here so not messing with it is a good choice on your part.

Is that mass of stranded copper towards the bottom every grounding circuit from the house?

So, I tried to take a look at that "No clue" section writing that you say serves as a "ghetto" main breaker and only one word out of like 4-6 words is even close to readable and it's "Dishwasher". So, I'm guessing they are using it as a you say...or they DID use it as you say. I'm guessing they added some breakers after the point of creating that "Sub-main breaker".

Yeah the mass of copper is all the grounding that I am aware of.

So...since I keep this shit super cheap 24/7 (sarcasm) would it be possible to have a main breaker outside the home and relocate the breaker into the garage?

If so, how many thousands would that push up a project LOL..?

iannis · Jan 19, 2020

GuardianX said:
Yerp.

Potato quality, I'll try and get a cleaner one.

View attachment 244433

I'll try and get a better picture in a second.

Well that's legitimately terrifying. Mostly just the input to the backboard.

Where'd the "on/off" switch go? WHERE IT IS?!?!?

BrutulTM · Jan 19, 2020

If it's jury rigged as a main it's easy enough to find out. Just switch it off and see if it kills everything. There are wires coming to your main lugs though so I don't think that's the case. The only way to make it work would be to run your main wires into the out lugs on the breaker which would be ghetto as fuck and only allow you 50 amps for the whole house. If they did that there wouldn't be wires on the main lugs though. Any chance there's a 240 outlet that's not in use somewhere? Maybe the dryer, oven, or ac got moved and there's still an outlet in the old location? Or the water heater got switched from electric to gas or something?

You could put a main breaker in front of your panel or just a shutoff. Don't know what the inspector would say about it but it would work. I guess you have to have the utility company come out to shut off your power to put it in though, which might result in an inspection?

Khane · Jan 19, 2020

Picasso3 said:
If your panel doesn't have a main breaker then it is a sub panel (they call it main lug I think) and the breaker is another breaker box somewhere. If this is your main house panel then you should definitely fix that (prob with a new panel).

By code the bathroom should be on its own 20 amp circuit.

the unknown 50a may be water heater or auxiliary electric furnace heat.. not too many things need 50a.

They have tandem breakers to free up room in the box.

Having 2p 240v on two separate breakers is against code unless the throw bars are mechanically joined. Eg you can turn off or blow one breaker and you still have 120v on the other leg, obv dangerous. You can have 240v single leg service (usually commercial i think) so maybe if you're in an apartment complex or something they did that.

Prob count on 1500-2k for panel replacement (300 in materials). I replaced one in my old house and am glad I did for learning and now I have no issues adding circuits, sub panels, etc, but it is difficult to manage if you're living in the house. I had to coordinate w/ City and Power company but replaced the meter and mast head too

If it looks like you need another subpanel or major work I really encourage you to save up and get a single new 40 space panel (and 200 amp service if you don't have that) instead of adding another layer of fuck to that system.

Re the single junction box per room -- The code has box size requirements depending on the number and size of connecting wires (which will probably be surprisingly large for 6 connections). You can also wire gfci outlets to protect downstream circuits so if you have any in place or plan to install any keep that in mind.

Haha, shows how much I know. All I do is look at my panel and see what look like single pole breakers for A/C (which are both 220v) and make assumptions. I'm guessing I have tandem breakers like you're explaining. Ignore me, carry on.

Burren · Jan 19, 2020

GuardianX said:
So, I tried to take a look at that "No clue" section writing that you say serves as a "ghetto" main breaker and only one word out of like 4-6 words is even close to readable and it's "Dishwasher". So, I'm guessing they are using it as a you say...or they DID use it as you say. I'm guessing they added some breakers after the point of creating that "Sub-main breaker".

Yeah the mass of copper is all the grounding that I am aware of.

So...since I keep this shit super cheap 24/7 (sarcasm) would it be possible to have a main breaker outside the home and relocate the breaker into the garage?

If so, how many thousands would that push up a project LOL..?

Please have a professional fix all of that. It won't break the bank and you along with the house will live. Some jobs are not worth trying the tackle yourself.

Fucker · Jan 19, 2020

Burren said:
Please have a professional fix all of that. It won't break the bank and you along with the house will live. Some jobs are not worth trying the tackle yourself.

Yep x100000000. If you don't know anything about electric, pay to have it done.

GuardianX · Jan 19, 2020

Burren said:
Please have a professional fix all of that. It won't break the bank and you along with the house will live. Some jobs are not worth trying the tackle yourself.

No doubt, I was mainly thinking that, if anything, I would drive the grounding rods if I need them.

Relocating a panel? Not even gunna attempt it.

Reverting to a previous convo about making a junction box for each room, I wanna see about doing that since I can renovate electrical without having to re-run entire lines of electrical and I just need to ensure a sealed and secure junction box.

GuardianX · Jan 20, 2020

BrutulTM said:
If it's jury rigged as a main it's easy enough to find out. Just switch it off and see if it kills everything. There are wires coming to your main lugs though so I don't think that's the case. The only way to make it work would be to run your main wires into the out lugs on the breaker which would be ghetto as fuck and only allow you 50 amps for the whole house. If they did that there wouldn't be wires on the main lugs though. Any chance there's a 240 outlet that's not in use somewhere? Maybe the dryer, oven, or ac got moved and there's still an outlet in the old location? Or the water heater got switched from electric to gas or something?

You could put a main breaker in front of your panel or just a shutoff. Don't know what the inspector would say about it but it would work. I guess you have to have the utility company come out to shut off your power to put it in though, which might result in an inspection?

So the Meter is literally 2 inches from the box, so no chance on the pre-box splice, plus I would let an electrician pull for that if it happened. I'm not THAT much of a cheap ass, I'm man enough to know when to call a pro.

Like you say, it's a 50 amp, IF the rest of the house is passing thru a 50 amp then I would be fairly shocked on a lot of things....the inspector didn't make mention of it...but that doesn't shock me considering the amount of things he missed.

lurkingdirk · Jan 20, 2020

Have you turned it off to see what happens?

Lanx · Jan 20, 2020

lurkingdirk said:
Have you turned it off to see what happens?

his spagetti wiring is probably the city master switch

Punko · Jan 20, 2020

GuardianX said:
Right side

View attachment 244449

The "no clue" part besides the oven would probably be your washing machine / dryer, or whatever high electricity things you have.

The amount of currency seems to be listed on top of the switches, 15-20 is lighting depending on the circuit, 15 perhaps for the bathrooms due to safety, 20 for the rest, 50 is appliances?

GuardianX · Jan 20, 2020

Punko said:
The "no clue" part besides the oven would probably be your washing machine / dryer, or whatever high electricity things you have.

The amount of currency seems to be listed on top of the switches, 15-20 is lighting depending on the circuit, 15 perhaps for the bathrooms due to safety, 20 for the rest, 50 is appliances?

Dryer is already marked (who the fuck knows if it goes there but it's marked).

Washing-machine would take a max of 20A but likely no more than sitting on a 15A line.

I mean I COULD run out, after turning off my PC and the media center, and flip that 50..see what happens..I'm guessing that it does like P Picasso3 mentioned and acts as a ghetto "Main breaker" connection to the bottom half of the breaker panel below the heavy appliances.

Finishing a project the wife asked me to do right now though...cleaning the shit out of "My" (mine because it needs cleaned and only I make messes...) closet and prepping a bag for good-will.

Borzak · Jan 20, 2020

Turn it off, what is the worst that could happen.

Lanx · Jan 22, 2020

speaking of wiring, is everyone elses doorbell wiring tied into the main switch? i went crazy turning off every switch one at a time, and then all the switches and my doorbell was still working (it rang and has the led), until i flipped the main breaker.

i guess i quickly skimmed that it's cuz it directly takes to a transformer and powers it down cuz it's a safety hazard that high voltage on an outside open circuit?

otherwise, new doorbell is great, i get a notification whenever anyone approaches my door.

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