Home Improvement

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,670
2,528
You can do a continuity test with a multi-meter.


The problem is the ends are 800 feet apart. I guess you could disconnect it from the power and tie the neutral to one of the hot wires at the service and then check the whole loop for continuity from the far end.

EDIT: Oh I see that's kind of what the video was saying to do hehe. Should have watched it before replying.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
17,227
44,552
One point that you need to consider is that any neutral will have to service all 120v loads, regardless of which hot leg they're on, A or B.

I'm assuming the tank heater is 120v? Could try moving the breaker for it to an opposing leg and see what happens. Same with the solenoid (again, assuming that it is a 120v coil). Most panels will alternate the hot legs horizontally and vertically, so you can usually just move a breaker up or down 1 space, or left to right 1 space. (assuming you have more than 2 spaces)

If one hot legs works 100% and the other leg keeps giving you the issue, then it may be an issue with a hot leg, not the neutral.

Also, do you have any 240v loads in service? This can really complicate things, depending on specifics. Doesn't sound like you have one though. But if you had a pure 240v heater load, so no 120v load at all, you could try running that there and see if that causes a similar voltage drop.

The voltage drop is odd but it seems like you only see it when there's load current present. Sometimes you'll see this when there's bad connections or breaks - at minimal current draw (especially with high impedance meters; most modern meters are up around a Megohm so very little current) you can still sometimes 'see' the full potential voltage, but when you load it down, the 'bad' path becomes obvious because it's not a really good current path, when a load is turned on. If you consider a bad connection (or a break in a cable) as a high-impedance 'section' (especially if it's packed full of water/wet mud inside of a conduit) that can present as a high enough resistance that it creates a voltage drop under load.

There's other ways to create voltage divider faults like that, but not sure you would be likely to see those in your application. But it's always a good idea to check all of your connections in that panel.

The issue with no ground is that you have no 'good' path for fault current (no low-impedance path) to flow back to the source. Meaning that fault current may never 'spike' high enough to trip a breaker of blow a fuse. And any ground fault would then have to trickle it's way back to the source via whatever inadequate source it can find (wet dirt, metal fencing, water pipe, etc) and it leaves possibility of anything metal being able to be energized with no resolution. Cattle being shocked could be a symptom of this.

The problem is the ends are 800 feet apart. I guess you could disconnect it from the power and tie the neutral to one of the hot wires at the service and then check the whole loop for continuity from the far end.

EDIT: Oh I see that's kind of what the video was saying to do hehe. Should have watched it before replying.

Just make sure to kill the circuit. You also may need to isolate your circuit (pull breakers) otherwise you could read continuity through a circuit in a panel.

So let's say that your B leg is broken and the Neutral is good. You try to do this with a meter, and theoretically you should get no continuity from B to Neutral (edit: assuming there's a break somewhere, to be clear, and you tried tying the far ends together for the purpose of testing). But you can get continuity from the B busbar, through a closed breaker, through that circuit (solenoid, heater element) back to the Neutral, and think there's continuity because you're reading the circuit parallel to the supply cables/feeders. The other option is to completely unland your cables at teh lugs so they're isolated, but it's up to you which would be easier.

This is assuming you're just trying to use a standard meter with a continuity/ohms setting. If you actually buy a tester like in the video, it probably won't matter. I imagine it's just a signal generator & receiver, so to speak, so it is looking for continuity TO the receiver on the far end and likely ignores simple parallel continuity (so still need to kill power but you don't need to isolate what you're testing)



Also, WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 1ViaGralis
Reactions: 4 users

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,670
2,528
One point that you need to consider is that any neutral will have to service all 120v loads, regardless of which hot leg they're on, A or B.

I'm assuming the tank heater is 120v? Could try moving the breaker for it to an opposing leg and see what happens. Same with the solenoid (again, assuming that it is a 120v coil). Most panels will alternate the hot legs horizontally and vertically, so you can usually just move a breaker up or down 1 space, or left to right 1 space. (assuming you have more than 2 spaces)
Yes the solenoid and heater are both 120V and he had them on opposite legs. I think he tried it both ways where the voltage would go screwy if he put a load on either leg without the other one but with a load on both legs it would even out even though they were much different loads (1500 watt heater vs. whatever a solenoid draws, probably not much). Also, the solenoid eventually fried and melted down after switching it a few times. We do have an auger that's 240V. It's on another sub panel but it's downstream of the problematic one so I could try running that and see if the voltage stays solid. He did say that even when the other voltages were wrong he always had 240v across the 2 legs, so if one side went down to 45 volts, the other side would read 195 etc.

Thanks for the reply, I'll update when we can do some more investigating.
 

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
17,227
44,552
He did say that even when the other voltages were wrong he always had 240v across the 2 legs, so if one side went down to 45 volts, the other side would read 195 etc.

But see, that kind of sounds like a floating neutral. And the difference for the voltage difference could be the different kinds of loads. The heater was probably dropping the 195 and the solenoid the 45. Without a neutral present it could just become a series voltage divider.

Thinking about it more...I was assuming the individual measurements were being made without any other load energized (breakers off), and just from hot to neutral. Which is pretty flawed assumption on my part. I would turn off all the breakers in that panel and test A to N, B to N and A to B, before doing anything else.

Now, if you're testing with loads across both legs to neutral, and both breakers on (not sure how the solenoid is being controlled) you can get some funky non-120v behavior. Without a neutral you can get 240v to flow across 120v loads, with hilariously bad results.

The heater is probably pretty straight forward and always ready to 'work'. But w/o a neutral it probably won't ever get hot (not a complete circuit)...until a level switch tries to command the valve on. At which point you have a path for the full 240v, going from A-leg through the heater to Neutral, then from Neutral across the solenoid/valve circuit to B-leg.

When a heater or a solenoids burns out, is it always either one or the other? If you've lost your neutral then you'll only get a path for current when they're BOTH on, and it's unlikely that both will burn out together. And once one or the other fries, then it should leave the other w/o current flowing (assuming it's just the 2 breakers/circuits)


This is the kind of thing where if I was within driving distance, I'd just put my boots on, grab my tools and drive up myself. Because this kind of thing is annoying AF, and it's harder to put into words than it is to just...test it yourself while standing there.


1699127442539.png
 
  • 4Like
Reactions: 3 users

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,670
2,528
I think you're probably right about the floating neutral. It all makes sense pretty much. The neutral came loose on my mom's house years ago and fried all the electronics in the house.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a loose connection this time. There was one wire that my brother nicked the insulation on when he installed a new panel and even though he patched it with a professional patch he thinks that could be the problem so he's going to dig that up and see what it looks like. If that's not it and we determine the neutral is bad I don't know what we can do but bury a new wire. I measured on Google earth and it's not quite as bad as I thought. 400 feet total with a sub panel halfway and I suspect it's between the service and the first panel. I still probably don't want to know what 0/4 costs per foot these days.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: 1 users

The_Black_Log Foler

PalsCo CEO - Stock Pals | Pantheon Pals
<Gold Donor>
47,632
42,866
Has anybody here installed or investigated a backup generator system for their home? Power has just become too unreliable and summer brownouts fucked with my appliances. What started as a thought to just call generac and put in a standard natgas fueled generator, has led me down the rabbit hole to looking at something like the below charging off the grid, backed up by a standard portable gas generator for extended outages, and maybe some supplemental solar (not interested in covering my roof with solar). Just seems to be so much out there now with rapidly changing tech.

Kohler or Cummins.
 

Haus

<Silver Donator>
12,704
49,335
I have a dumb/naive question: how do folks finance these larger house expenses? Like I have enough that I could throw a couple K out of my savings to pay for a fence or something, but some of these larger projects would take me a decade to save for. Do many places do financing? Other avenues to pay? Do most people just have this much cash on hand?

I know I'm probably an outlier but for me it's that I'm in cybersecurity sales. And the nature of my work is base pay + commission , and it's usually starve, starve, starve, HUGE ASS DEAL, starve, starve, starve... As such I have learned to live completely off the base pay and then the commissions are gravy/luxury/buy toys/invest/etc money. In this case I had a "HUGE ASS DEAL" land after insurance had already paid on my damaged patio enclosure, so I just invested some additional money with it to make the enclosed new patio room you saw me put up pics of.

If I hadn't needed to redo the patio one way or another that comm check would have gone into the "down payment on land in the country" fund.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
17,227
44,552
Another thing I was thinking about at work...I don't think I've mentioned these in this thread before...

I have some old VACO screwdrivers at work. The ones that hold flat tip screws. I have to use a lot of stainless steel hardware (so magnetic tips don't work), sometimes they're in really hard to reach places, and these are pretty fucking handy. I don't need to use them often enough that I just leave them out on the bench 24/7, but I know exactly where they are.

There's a lot of different makes and models. I might buy some for my personal tool set.

s-l960.jpg


 
  • 7Like
Reactions: 6 users

Kobayashi

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
781
1,950
Another thing I was thinking about at work...I don't think I've mentioned these in this thread before...

I have some old VACO screwdrivers at work. The ones that hold flat tip screws. I have to use a lot of stainless steel hardware (so magnetic tips don't work), sometimes they're in really hard to reach places, and these are pretty fucking handy. I don't need to use them often enough that I just leave them out on the bench 24/7, but I know exactly where they are.

There's a lot of different makes and models. I might buy some for my personal tool set.

s-l960.jpg



You reminded me of a tool I'd been looking for forever. Same idea, holds the screw on mechanically without a magnet. A short search came up with this:


This is close, but the one I used to use had 4 fingers instead of two. I wish I would have just stolen that tool now, it's my white whale.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Erronius

<WoW Guild Officer>
<Gold Donor>
17,227
44,552
This is close, but the one I used to use had 4 fingers instead of two. I wish I would have just stolen that tool now, it's my white whale.

Would that be more for Phillips instead of Straight? I guess that might be better for really small screws, like #4 or #6?
 

The_Black_Log Foler

PalsCo CEO - Stock Pals | Pantheon Pals
<Gold Donor>
47,632
42,866
Why is it so hard to find a good shed builder? Tuff shed is overpriced and limited customization. I realize building a shed is a trivial endeavor in learning framing. I’d love to do it but I don’t feel like I have the time. I need something that’s 12-14x24 ft.
 

Kajiimagi

<Gold Donor>
2,323
4,469
But see, that kind of sounds like a floating neutral. And the difference for the voltage difference could be the different kinds of loads. The heater was probably dropping the 195 and the solenoid the 45. Without a neutral present it could just become a series voltage divider.

Thinking about it more...I was assuming the individual measurements were being made without any other load energized (breakers off), and just from hot to neutral. Which is pretty flawed assumption on my part. I would turn off all the breakers in that panel and test A to N, B to N and A to B, before doing anything else.

Now, if you're testing with loads across both legs to neutral, and both breakers on (not sure how the solenoid is being controlled) you can get some funky non-120v behavior. Without a neutral you can get 240v to flow across 120v loads, with hilariously bad results.

The heater is probably pretty straight forward and always ready to 'work'. But w/o a neutral it probably won't ever get hot (not a complete circuit)...until a level switch tries to command the valve on. At which point you have a path for the full 240v, going from A-leg through the heater to Neutral, then from Neutral across the solenoid/valve circuit to B-leg.

When a heater or a solenoids burns out, is it always either one or the other? If you've lost your neutral then you'll only get a path for current when they're BOTH on, and it's unlikely that both will burn out together. And once one or the other fries, then it should leave the other w/o current flowing (assuming it's just the 2 breakers/circuits)


This is the kind of thing where if I was within driving distance, I'd just put my boots on, grab my tools and drive up myself. Because this kind of thing is annoying AF, and it's harder to put into words than it is to just...test it yourself while standing there.


View attachment 498866

My $.02

When electricity stops 'making sense' it's almost always a neutral problem.

Can you 'cause' your issue with one thing on? I mean if the heater is causing the issue, can you replicate it with every other load off and just the heater on? I'm asking because the fastest way to find your issue would be to get a cable the length of the longest run and run it between the panel(s). If that clears it up , your problem lies in the run. Unfortunately, undersizing the cable would also cause problems so you need to know your loads.

If your brother is an electrician, does he have access to some cable temporarily? If not can he figure voltage drop and size for your loads? I'd hate to see you spend a lot of money on a full size cable and it NOT help. Edit: keep in mind if the original wire is copper, the appropriate aluminum cable will need to be larger.

Here is why I think this may help, I had 2 panels 700' between each other. They were aluminum cable in conduit. All of a sudden I had 208 2 of the legs, and like 190 between the other. We ran lines across the ground between the 2 panels and it corrected the issue. When we pulled the wire out of the conduit , we discovered a place about 2' long where water had penetrated the insulation and ate through most of the strands of one of the phases.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: 1 users

Kobayashi

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
781
1,950
Would that be more for Phillips instead of Straight? I guess that might be better for really small screws, like #4 or #6?
Definitely more Phillips or Torx than straight. I don't think I've ever seen one coupled with a straight driver. I feel like they mostly make these for electricians, but I like them for automotive applications - there is always some awkward fastener location that will dump a screw into the abyss if you don't thread the needle just right.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Kajiimagi

<Gold Donor>
2,323
4,469
Why is it so hard to find a good shed builder? Tuff shed is overpriced and limited customization. I realize building a shed is a trivial endeavor in learning framing. I’d love to do it but I don’t feel like I have the time. I need something that’s 12-14x24 ft.
Does it have to the Tuff brand specifically? If not I'll look tomorrow and see what brand my shed is. Want to say it was built in Canada. I bought it from a lot and they set it at my house. I use it for excess storage and never bothered to run water/power to it. It works great for what it is. Was $5,300 when we bought it a few years ago.


EDIT: Looks like it's a company called Cumberland Buildings. I have the 'lofted barn'. Looked at a few on the local lot and they all seemed to be well made.

 
Last edited:

The_Black_Log Foler

PalsCo CEO - Stock Pals | Pantheon Pals
<Gold Donor>
47,632
42,866
Does it have to the Tuff brand specifically? If not I'll look tomorrow and see what brand my shed is. Want to say it was built in Canada. I bought it from a lot and they set it at my house. I use it for excess storage and never bothered to run water/power to it. It works great for what it is. Was $5,300 when we bought it a few years ago.


EDIT: Looks like it's a company called Cumberland Buildings. I have the 'lofted barn'. Looked at a few on the local lot and they all seemed to be well made.

No, actually I’d prefer it not be tuff shed. It’s just extremely difficult to find a shed dealer with good reviews.

This was on tuff sheds lot yesterday. I mean look at that shit. That’s just one… Pretty much every other shed had shoddy workmanship or wood. I will say these were the discounted ones but still, the fuck?

My quote for a 12x20 8 ft high wall lofted gambrel shed with upgraded 12” OC floor joists and a few other things came out to about 15k…

I’d do it myself but work a hfull time job and also run a homestead that I can barely keep up with. It’s like no one does good work these days, no one takes pride in what they build. Compare this to the lofted barn cabin on Cumberland’s website. Tuff shed looks like it’s using a 4x4, meanwhile Cumberland is using something bigger.

IMG_4201.jpeg
IMG_4203.jpeg


I found a shed builder who looked great but they’re 2 hours away and won’t build sheds in my area, they’ll only deliver metal ones.. I don’t want a metal shed.

I’d maybe be open to buying plans. Only PITA is I’d have to make sure they fit code in Florida.

Edit - ya Cumberland doesn’t do Florida. Bummer, they do look good.

 

Captain Suave

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
5,253
8,953
Just FYI if anyone's in the Makita LXT ecosystem. Home Depot has a sale running for 2x 5Ah batteries + charger with a "free" tool of your choice for $200. I don't think I've seen a better deal recently. I picked up a multitool, and I already owned the blower and love it.

 
Last edited: