I do not believe in equality

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Khane

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Titan_atlas_sl said:
You keep using the words equal opportunity. Then the next sentence you talk about all the equal resources. You can go to a free public library and educate yourself. Or since everyone in the ghetto now has Well iPhone you can Google almost anything the world has ever created. So the barrier you discuss doesn't exist. Your ideology is wrong because it's based on flawed philosophy.
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How are those kids getting to these public facilities? Everyone in the ghetto has an iPhone?
 
Titan_Atlas

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Khane_sl said:
How are those kids getting to these public facilities? Everyone in the ghetto has an iPhone?
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Public bus? Walking? Yes they must have iPhones cause you can find videos of almost everything that happens in the hood online. I'm pretty sure it's not gritty young filmmakers uploading them.
 
Lithose

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Khane_sl said:
The questions aren't really loaded.

What do you think the problem is? The chicken or the egg? Most people can't answer that question, but in their own mind they sure as shit think they can.

And when you keep digging deeper the thought process unravels.
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Almost universally students with more active parents do much, much better. It's not a chicken and egg argument, it's egg--that's it. Even in a terrible school, a parent with modern technology has more than enough resources to give their kids a huge boost. Hell, just reading to children has a large correlation to doing much, much better in school. Parents who give a shit, and have the time to nurture and help, can push any average child to at least a level where college and stability are fairly easily obtainable--regardless of how terrible their school is (Barring it being a war zone or some other extreme outliar.)

This, not the schools, is the primary difference. Now, this doesn't mean some schools don't have advantages, they do. Teachers which aren't frustrated or apathetic will teach better. But again, the thing is, at that point, where the schools REALLY matter? You're starting to divide people already above the average spectrum, so everyone in those groups should have a decent shot at being successful (In other words, parental involvement, even with a bad school, is good enough to do well, after that point a good school can push someone to do great; but the issue is many kids in 'bad schools' aren't even doing well, and that's not the disparity in the schools causing that.)

If we focus on schools, it would be like stitching the skin above a severed artery--we aren't addressing the problem, at all. We're dealing with a symptom. No school can replace a parent, no teacher will have more of an effect on a kid than an encouraging parent who is involved in their education. The question really is, how do we get poor families to the point where they have the stability and self sufficiency to offer this to their kids? How do we fix the chronic problems in these communities? That's a much more complex answer, and so people focus on the schools. Because it's an insitution we, as voters/government have a clear cut amount of power to change things in.

But we're deluded if we believe we believe we can exert as much influence in 900-1000 hours a year, as children get influences in the remaining 7500ish hours at home. 11% of the time? No, sorry. You're never going to be a good enough school or supervisor to alter bad behavior or help someone when you only occupy them for 11% of their time, and they get the bad behavior reinforced for the other 90% (Or however much after sleep).
 
Khane

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Trolling is asking people questions so you can get a better understanding of their opinion and thought process?

"How dare you make me defend my beliefs"
 
Cad

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So Khane is it safe to assume that since you dodged my question about having ever been inside an elementary school, you've never even been in one? In a good neighborhood or bad?
 
Tanoomba

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mkopec_sl said:
More educated than you, bro. And definitely make more bank than you. All with an Detroit inner city education grade 1-6. Imagine that. But go ahead with your silly grammar nazi bullshit.
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Learn how to communicate like an adult, dude. It's not too late.

Here' I'll get you started:
Anapostrophe(') is often used to join two words together. For instance, you can put "it is" together to get "it's", as in "It's raining" or "It's Tuesday". You can also put "we are" together to get "we're", as in "we're educated" (that's what you needed). "He will" becomes "he'll", "do not" becomes "don't", etc.

"Were" is the past tense of the verbto befor "we" or "they". "Theywerelate for the party." "Wewerestuck in traffic."

It's not easy. I don't blame people for getting it wrong. A lot of English rules are legit arbitrary and very difficult even for native speakers to master. But mixing up "were" and "we're" can and does interfere with your intended meaning. If you want to communicate successfully, especially within the context of talking about how educated you are, you need to pay attention to this shit.
 
fanaskin

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Stop being a retarded fuckface tanoomba. Nobody wants to read these screeds of yours.
 
Khane

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Lithose_sl said:
Almost universally students with more active parents do much, much better. It's not a chicken and egg argument, it's egg--that's it. Even in a terrible school, a parent with modern technology has more than enough resources to give their kids a huge boost. Hell, just reading to children has a large correlation to doing much, much better in school. Parents who give a shit, and have the time to nurture and help, can push any average child to at least a level where college and stability are fairly easily obtainable--regardless of how terrible their school is (Barring it being a war zone or some other extreme outliar.)

This, not the schools, is the primary difference. Now, this doesn't mean some schools don't have advantages, they do. Teachers which aren't frustrated or apathetic will teach better. But again, the thing is, at that point, where the schools REALLY matter? You're starting to divide people already above the average spectrum, so everyone in those groups should have a decent shot at being successful (In other words, parental involvement, even with a bad school, is good enough to do well, after that point a good school can push someone to do great; but the issue is many kids in 'bad schools' aren't even doing well, and that's not the disparity in the schools causing that.)

If we focus on schools, it would be like stitching the skin above a severed artery--we aren't addressing the problem, at all. We're dealing with a symptom. No school can replace a parent, no teacher will have more of an effect on a kid than an encouraging parent who is involved in their education. The question really is, how do we get poor families to the point where they have the stability and self sufficiency to offer this to their kids? How do we fix the chronic problems in these communities? That's a much more complex answer, and so people focus on the schools. Because it's an insitution we, as voters/government have a clear cut amount of power to change things in.

But we're deluded if we believe we believe we can exert as much influence in 900-1000 hours a year, as children get influences in the remaining 7500ish hours at home. 11% of the time? No, sorry. You're never going to be a good enough school or supervisor to alter bad behavior or help someone when you only occupy them for 11% of their time, and they get the bad behavior reinforced for the other 90% (Or however much after sleep).
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I think the misunderstanding here is that some of you believe I'm saying schools are the real problem. I'm not. They are one of the problems, and the parent and culture situation most certainly is the bigger problem. I'm just discussing an issue people are bringing up as if schools aren't a problem at all. People acting like the schools are the same, and thus the opportunity is the same. That was the argument. It's outrageous to pretend that's true.
 
Khane

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Cad_sl said:
So Khane is it safe to assume that since you dodged my question about having ever been inside an elementary school, you've never even been in one? In a good neighborhood or bad?
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Cad, is it safe to assume that the small amount of elementary classrooms you've been in more recently than I have is completely inconsequential because it isn't an accurate representation of anything other than your small surrounding area?

This has unsurprisingly gotten way off course. The only argument I was making is it's outrageous to claim these kids have equal opportunity and one part of the problem is the access they have to education isn't equal.
 
Titan_Atlas

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Tanoomba_sl said:
Learn how to communicate like an adult, dude. It's not too late.

Here' I'll get you started:
Anapostrophe(') is often used to join two words together. For instance, you can put "it is" together to get "it's", as in "It's raining" or "It's Tuesday". You can also put "we are" together to get "we're", as in "we're educated" (that's what you needed). "He will" becomes "he'll", "do not" becomes "don't", etc.

"Were" is the past tense of the verbto befor "we" or "they". "Theywerelate for the party." "Wewerestuck in traffic."

It's not easy. I don't blame people for getting it wrong. A lot of English rules are legit arbitrary and very difficult even for native speakers to master. But mixing up "were" and "we're" can and does interfere with your intended meaning. If you want to communicate successfully, especially within the context of talking about how educated you are, you need to pay attention to this shit.
Click to expand...
Thanks Noam Chomsky. No matter your grammar, you're still wrong.
 
chaos

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I don't think it is a chicken of egg problem, because if you go back far enough you start getting into tangential, abstract shit. How does the plight of 400+ years of slavery impact black americans today? Depends on who you ask, I guess, but when you're getting that far back you kind of have to just stop giving a shit about the root cause of it all. Doesn't matter who is to blame, just fix the fucking thing. Right now, I am sure the shitty community and the shitty school work hand in hand to produce shitty humans.
 
mkopec

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Tanoomba_sl said:
rrr_img_135313.jpg
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.
 
Cad

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Khane_sl said:
I think the misunderstanding here is that some of you believe I'm saying schools are the real problem. I'm not. They are one of the problems, and the parent and culture situation most certainly is the bigger problem. I'm just discussing an issue people are bringing up as if schools aren't a problem at all. People acting like the schools are the same, and thus the opportunity is the same. That was the argument. It's outrageous to pretend that's true.
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The schools "generally" are not the problem. There probably are schools which have systemic issues to cause problems, but if thats going to be your argument it's like saying the Congress sucks because the Capitol building is old and in need of a refresh and the staff doesn't refill the congresscritters' water fast enough. Teachers (probably even Tanoomba!) do a herculean job of educating a huge group of fucking miscreants, and people are always so quick to blame them when the problem begins and ends at home.
 
Titan_Atlas

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Khane_sl said:
Cad, is it safe to assume that the small amount of elementary classrooms you've been in more recently than I have is completely inconsequential because it isn't an accurate representation of anything other than your small surrounding area?
Click to expand...
You should go back to focusing on proving you are a player in the marriage thread. Your schtick where you please lefty girls with double talk and never answering is weak. Men know better than to take a snakes logic.
 
Cad

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Khane_sl said:
Cad, is it safe to assume that the small amount of elementary classrooms you've been in more recently than I have is completely inconsequential because it isn't an accurate representation of anything other than your small surrounding area?

This has unsurprisingly gotten way off course. The only argument I was making is it's outrageous to claim these kids have equal opportunity and one part of the problem is the access they have to education isn't equal.
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Considering the best and worst schools in all of the Dallas area are within a few miles of each other, I dunno.

But I guess a guy who has never been inside an elementary school is qualified to tell us how it's the schools. Keep it up bro.
 
fanaskin

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Empathy and trust go down the more urban and multiethnic and multi religious a society is. It won't get better, people barely tolerate each other as it is.
 
Lithose

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Khane_sl said:
I think the misunderstanding here is that some of you believe I'm saying schools are the real problem. I'm not. They are one of the problems, and the parent and culture situation most certainly is the bigger problem. I'm just discussing an issue people are bringing up as if schools aren't a problem at all. People acting like the schools are the same, and thus the opportunity is the same. That was the argument. It's outrageous to pretend that's true.
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone thinks they are all the same. Teachers which are apathetic, because they can't contact parents, and deal with severe behavior issues, probably certainly teach worse. If people 'give up' on a district or aren't held to account by involved parents, you're going to find the classic problems you get with public service bureaucracy--it sucks, people will do the minimum work possible and it creates a mess. In 'good' schools, this is checked by parents attending meetings and being involved--powerful self interest polices things. When you don't have that because the parents don't care, yeah, schools are affected.

But the thing, the problem we're dealing with isn't that poorer people are ending up in state colleges and getting moderately good jobs despite perhaps having the aptitude, if they had a great school, to go to an Ivy League school and work in a cutting edge field. While that situation would be a problem; our problem is much more severe. Our problem is kids not even finishing high school, not being directed toward a trade or any kind of productivity.

We're not really at the point where the most pressing concern is how we equalize success. We're still scrambling to limit failure. Varying degrees of success is what the differences in schools probably make, a good private school vs a mediocre public school is probably the difference between Harvard and a nice state school, and while that is unfair--I think it's safe to say that's a good kind of problem compared to what we have now. We shouldn't be worried about how to make kids as successful as each other--we should be worried about how to actually get the failing kids to be successfulat all.

As Sowell said above, even if you put one of these kids in a private, high end school with intense course work--it wouldn't work. In fact, it would be detrimental to them, because they'd be alienated and left behind. We don't even have the problem of different levels of success you--you actually need a stable, functional home life to put you IN that game, and we don't have that. So what good is addressing schools given that?
 
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