Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? sigh

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 3, 2015

I bet siddar thinks freedom of speach means you have freedom from consequence too

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

khalid_sl said:
You deal with it bro. The worm has turned. Now you guys have to deal with not being able to discriminate at will. If you try to exercise your "right" to discriminate, you will get sued and put out of business.

I would happly make a god loves fags cake and a god hate fags cake for small fee with no problems. I am opposed to being told I have to make ether cake. If my views are no longer valid then individual freedom and rights or dead as well.

Fury · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
I have a right to bake cakes, I have a right to sale cakes, I have a right to not bake a cake for you.

Deal with it.

You have the right to bake cakes, you have the right to sell cakes. You do not have the right to discriminate. Whether it's race, sex, or sexual orientation.

Deal with it.

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
I bet siddar thinks freedom of speach means you have freedom from consequence too

From a person who doesn't think government forcing you to do something actually counts as forcing them to do something your logic makes perfect.

Tuco · Apr 3, 2015

hodj_sl said:
And the exact same reasoning used to justify an end to bans on blacks and whites marrying is valid in this context in regards to homosexual marriages.

Its a violation of the equal protections clause on its face.

I would like to hear your opinion on this.

I've said what I want. The argument for gay marriage stands on its own two feet. Basing the conversation on whether we can leverage the civil rights war from the 60s is sophomoric. I don't like opening a thread about gays and seeing people throw blacks around like a football, just like I don't want to open a thread about whether a given animation canceling DPS rotation is an exploit and seeing people trying to use literally hitler as a bat to beat people with.

Siddar_sl said:
I would happly make a god loves fags cake and a god hate fags cake for small fee with no problems. I am opposed to being told I have to make ether cake. If my views are no longer valid then individual freedom and rights or dead as well.

I think you can only call individual freedom and rights dead if you are forced to bake cakes or not to bake cakes period. If you want to bake cakes you have to bake cakes for everyone who pays good money and acts appropriately to you and in your store.

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

Fury_sl said:
You have the right to bake cakes, you have the right to sell cakes. You do not have the right to discriminate. Whether it's race, sex, or sexual orientation.

Deal with it.

Nope

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
I would happly make a god loves fags cake and a god hate fags cake for small fee with no problems. I am opposed to being told I have to make ether cake. If my views are no longer valid then individual freedom and rights or dead as well.

Yeah, shit doesn't work like that. Your views are no longer valid, but that doesn't mean individual rights and freedoms are dead. Your dumb version of them that exists only to protect bigotry are at least mostly dead.

Anyway, just accept it and be happy. It leads to a better society. You can still hate on gays all you want. Hell, you can even indoctrinate your kids to hate gays all you want still.

1987 · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
Nope

What do you base this on? Is it just gays that you can deny service to? Is it simply because sexual orientation is notyeta protected class federally? Do you think it is legal for you to discriminate on the basis of race or gender?

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
Nope

So you think you should be able to not sell your cakes to an asian or black person too?

Tuco · Apr 3, 2015

ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
So you think you should be able to not sell your cakes to an asian or black person too?

1987_sl said:
What do you base this on? Is it just gays that you can deny service to? Is it simply because sexual orientation is notyeta protected class federally? Do you think it is legal for you to discriminate on the basis of race or gender?

No offense to you guys and sorry for springboarding on you on an even worse derail than black rights, but this is why I have the opinion I do. People reach a stalemate talking about gay rights and the first thing they try is to argue about racial rights. It's totally unnecessary.

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
Nope

Unfortunately, you gotta deal with it or you will be put out of business and you will end up like this lady...

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
I've said what I want. The argument for gay marriage stands on its own two feet. Basing the conversation on whether we can leverage the civil rights war from the 60s is sophomoric. I don't like opening a thread about gays and seeing people throw blacks around like a football, just like I don't want to open a thread about whether a given animation canceling DPS rotation is an exploit and seeing people trying to use literally hitler as a bat to beat people with.

I think you can only call individual freedom and rights dead if you are forced to bake cakes or not to bake cakes period. If you want to bake cakes you have to bake cakes for everyone who pays good money and acts appropriately to you and in your store.

I would agree is it was a generic cake but ether the god hates or god loves cakes if they were not in accordance with my beliefs I would simply refuse to bake.

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
No offense to you guys and sorry for springboarding on you on an even worse derail than black rights, but this is why I have the opinion I do. People reach a stalemate talking about gay rights and the first thing they try is to argue about racial rights. It's totally unnecessary.

How is one form of discrimination different from the other?

hodj · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
I've said what I want. The argument for gay marriage stands on its own two feet. Basing the conversation on whether we can leverage the civil rights war from the 60s is sophomoric. I don't like opening a thread about gays and seeing people throw blacks around like a football, just like I don't want to open a thread about whether a given animation canceling DPS rotation is an exploit and seeing people trying to use literally hitler as a bat to beat people with.

So we shouldn't be basing future civil rights decisions on precedents from past civil rights cases?

I mean you're free to that opinion, but I think if you'll look into these cases around the nation, the Loving v Virginia case has been used repeatedly and strongly in courts of law to justify overturning gay marriage bans around the nation.

Seems completely applicable to me. Pointing out the legal reasoning behind expanded marriage and other civil rights to homosexuals based on past precedent seems a completely justified position in an internet debate.

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

khalid_sl said:
Unfortunately, you gotta deal with it or you will be put out of business and you will end up like this lady...

I don't make cakes for a living bro. Its just a analogy bro.

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

Yeah, trying to restrict our debate to what you think is important, when the courts themselves are directly using arguments from the civil rights era of the 60s, seems absurd.

1987 · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
No offense to you guys and sorry for springboarding on you on an even worse derail than black rights, but this is why I have the opinion I do. People reach a stalemate talking about gay rights and the first thing they try is to argue about racial rights. It's totally unnecessary.

He is arguing that discrimination against gays is legal under the guise of personal property rights, and individual freedom. I'm asking him, since it is his position, to explain where his justifications end. Do they apply to other federally protected classes? I'm not calling him racist. Even if he supports none of the civil rights movement, I wont call him racist. But his defense of gay bigotry has nothing to do with "gayness" itself. And the justifications he uses apply to much larger issues than simple sexual orientation discrimination.

I am pointing out a logical disconnect and asking him to explain.

Tuco · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
I would agree is it was a generic cake but ether the god hates or god loves cakes if they were not in accordance with my beliefs I would simply refuse to bake.

I agree and I don't think anyone is arguing you, as a baker, should be forced to cook any cake a customer wants. AFAIK it'd be totally legal for you to refuse to cook red velvet cakes on grounds that no one should put 2 tablespoons of food coloring in a cake. The same goes for a baker being asked to make a cake that says "God made Adam and Eve" or "Boy I sure love cocks".

Siddar · Apr 3, 2015

1987_sl said:
What do you base this on? Is it just gays that you can deny service to? Is it simply because sexual orientation is notyeta protected class federally? Do you think it is legal for you to discriminate on the basis of race or gender?

I think I've explained it enough in prior pots. I really don't feel the need to correct your miss assumptions if your not even going to try and follow what in prior posts clearly I clearly laid out.

Malakriss · Apr 3, 2015

Siddar_sl said:
I think I've explained it enough in prior pots. I really don't feel the need to correct your miss assumptions if your not even going to try and follow what in prior posts clearly I clearly laid out.

Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

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Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? sigh