khalid
Unelected Mod
No, I'm saying individual rights have limits, and one of those limits is when you start discriminating against people while running a business.Yeah so what your saying fuck individual rights.
No, I'm saying individual rights have limits, and one of those limits is when you start discriminating against people while running a business.Yeah so what your saying fuck individual rights.
So I don't have to hear about dumb shit like this? YesYou really think that's a better option?
I don't think I presented my statement well. I agree it's an apt comparison and the people arguing against gay rights now have a lot of similarities arguing against black rights 50 years ago.I feel compelled to completely disagree with this.
Can I ask you something Tuco? Is sexual orientation a choice?
If so, then yes, this is a silly comparison and I agree with your statement.
But if not, then I would say comparing it to blacks in the 60's is just abouttheperfect example.
This entire law only makes sense if being gay is a choice. If it isn't, then welcome to the civil rights movement.
While we're at it, how do you feel about the curse of Ham? (rhetorical)
You're completely clueless.So basically blacks and women are just as bad as gay people as an "undesirable group", and we need to draw the line somewhere and stop letting the government protect these groups because they shouldn't have any personal freedoms. Is that what you're saying Siddar?
Bullshit you libtard faggot. I have the right to fuck kill and eat my slaves. A man does what he wants with his property! Segregation now and forever!No, I'm saying individual rights have limits, and one of those limits is when you start discriminating against people while running a business.
Your individual freedom to discriminate ended when you created a public fucking business that takes in customers. We aren't inconveniencing you IN THE SLIGHTEST by telling you to serve whoever the fuck comes in your store.How does a business not baking you a cake remove your individual freedom.
I have to take care of people in hospitals that I can't stand all day. Guess what? They come in, they get service like any other person. I'm not allowed to say, I'm not serving a swastika wearing, black hating skinhead. I still have to treat them as a human being. Shocking, right?Where did I ever say it was ok?
If government forces you to do business with someone you disprove of how that is not forcing you to accept them?
So you think the comparison is apt, but you feel like we should instead go in depth about why gays should be able to marry?My point is that it's a cheap and distracting argument to make. To me it says, "I can't justify that gays should have the right to marry on its own, so instead I'll point out the similarities to the civil rights movement and since we all agree that blacks should have rights you're now forced to agree that gays should have rights."
I think we fundamentally disagree about a thing. This isn't similar to the civil rights movement, this is still the civil rights movement. It's pretty much been won already, these are just mopping up operations. They're still very important operations mind you, but unless Universities start getting burned, this is already over. Folks like Siddar are quantized units of philosophical failure.To me it says, "I can't justify that gays should have the right to marry on its own, so instead I'll point out the similarities to the civil rights movement and since we all agree that blacks should have rights you're now forced to agree that gays should have rights."
No, you make yourself sound clueless when you don't clearly state the difference between ethnicity (we're all human), gender, and sexual orientation. Or even have any case that there is one. None of them are a choice. If someone's freedoms stop where another person's start, why is it considered "personal freedom" to deny someone else their freedoms?You're completely clueless.
Go back and read the thread I was responding to a post clearly talking about why there is a clear difference between race and gender and homosexuality. How does a business not baking you a cake remove your individual freedom.
Basic rules are that your freedoms stop where mine start and government forcing me to bake you a cake if I don't want to very much is infringing upon my rights.
So what your saying is you are completely willing to shit upon individual freedom in order to promote the causes you believe in?No, you make yourself sound clueless when you don't clearly state the difference between ethnicity (we're all human), gender, and sexual orientation. Or even have any case that there is one. None of them are a choice. If someone's freedoms stop where another person's start, why is it considered "personal freedom" to deny someone else their freedoms?
Also they're not being forced to bake a cake. They could not run a cake baking business and they wouldn't ever have to bake a cake again.
Individual freedom is not being completely shit on. It is being slightly curtailed in the case of someone running a public business. Since the "individual freedom" we are talking about is someone wanting to be a bigot, I'm fine with that.So what your saying is you are completely willing to shit upon individual freedom in order to promote the causes you believe in?
I have a right to bake cakes, I have a right to sale cakes, I have a right to not bake a cake for you.Your individual freedom to discriminate ended when you created a public fucking business that takes in customers. We aren't inconveniencing you IN THE SLIGHTEST by telling you to serve whoever the fuck comes in your store.
A person comes in that is black, shut up and serve them.
A person comes in that is yellow, shut up and serve them.
A 6'5" tall hairy looking dude comes in wearing pantyhose and saying they prefer to be called a her, shut up and serve them.
Then go home at the end of the day, crack open your bible and talk about how fags are the devils creation or whatever other bullshit you believe.
Slightly is reason enough to not infringe at all.Individual freedom is not being completely shit on. It is being slightly curtailed in the case of someone running a public business. Since the "individual freedom" we are talking about is someone wanting to be a bigot, I'm fine with that.
My rebuttal to this would be that Loving vs Virginia is the exact standard I would use to justify gay marriage.I don't think I presented my statement well. I agree it's an apt comparison and the people arguing against gay rights now have a lot of similarities arguing against black rights 50 years ago.
My point is that it's a cheap and distracting argument to make. To me it says, "I can't justify that gays should have the right to marry on its own, so instead I'll point out the similarities to the civil rights movement and since we all agree that blacks should have rights you're now forced to agree that gays should have rights."
I don't have any strong feelings about the curse of Ham.
It isn't a lazy comparison. Its a literal 1 to 1 comparison. Replace "race" with "sexual preference" in these sentences above and you get an equivalent proposal: Denying same sex couples the same rights as heterosexual couples is a violation of their rights to equal protection under the law.Criminal proceedings[edit]
At the age of 18, Mildred became pregnant, and in June 1958 the couple traveled to Washington, D.C. to marry, thereby evading Virginia's Racial Integrity Act of 1924, which made interracial marriage a crime. They returned to the small town of Central Point, Virginia. Based on an anonymous tip,[8] local police raided their home at night, hoping to find them having sex, which was also a crime according to Virginia law. When the officers found the Lovings sleeping in their bed, Mildred pointed out their marriage certificate on the bedroom wall. That certificate became the evidence for the criminal charge of "cohabiting as man and wife, against the peace and dignity of the Commonwealth" that was brought against them.
The Lovings were charged under Section 20-58 of the Virginia Code, which prohibited interracial couples from being married out of state and then returning to Virginia, and Section 20-59, which classified miscegenation as a felony, punishable by a prison sentence of between one and five years.The trial judge in the case, Leon M. Bazile, echoing Johann Friedrich Blumenbach's 18th-century interpretation of race, wrote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pleaded guilty and were sentenced to one year in prison, with the sentence suspended for 25 years on condition that the couple leave the state of Virginia. They did so, moving to the District of Columbia.
Decision[edit]
The U.S. Supreme Court overturned the Lovings' convictions in a unanimous decision (dated June 12, 1967), dismissing the Commonwealth of Virginia's argument that a law forbidding both white and black persons from marrying persons of another race-and providing identical penalties to white and black violators-could not be construed as racially discriminatory. The court ruled that Virginia's anti-miscegenation statute violated both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Chief Justice Earl Warren's opinion for the unanimous court held that:
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
The court concluded that anti-miscegenation laws were racist and had been enacted to perpetuate white supremacy:
There is patently no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification. The fact that Virginia prohibits only interracial marriages involving white persons demonstrates that the racial classifications must stand on their own justification, as measures designed to maintain White Supremacy.
Associate Justice Potter Stewart filed a brief concurring opinion. He reiterated his opinion from McLaughlin v. Florida that "it is simply not possible for a state law to be valid under our Constitution which makes the criminality of an act depend upon the race of the actor."
And the exact same reasoning used to justify an end to bans on blacks and whites marrying is valid in this context in regards to homosexual marriages.The Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision that precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation, and for many other decisions rejecting irrational or unnecessary discrimination against people belonging to various groups.
For same-sex marriage[edit]
Loving v. Virginia is discussed in the context of the public debate about same-sex marriage in the United States.[22]
In Hernandez v. Robles (2006), the majority opinion of the New York Court of Appeals-that state's highest court-declined to rely on the Loving case when deciding whether a right to same-sex marriage existed, holding that "the historical background of Loving is different from the history underlying this case."[23] In the 2010 federal district court decision in Perry v. Schwarzenegger, overturning California's Proposition 8 which restricted marriage to opposite-sex couples, Judge Vaughn R. Walker cited Loving v. Virginia to conclude that "the [constitutional] right to marry protects an individual's choice of marital partner regardless of gender".[24] On more narrow grounds, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed.[25][26]
In June 2007, on the 40th anniversary of the Supreme Court's decision in Loving, Mildred Loving issued a statement that said:[27][28]
I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry... I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness and the family that so many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight, seek in life. I support the freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.
Since 2014, five U.S. Courts of Appeals have considered the constitutionality of state bans on same-sex marriage. In doing so they have interpreted or used the Loving ruling in a few different ways.
The Fourth and Tenth Circuits used Loving along with other cases like Zablocki v. Redhail and Turner v. Safley to demonstrate that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized a "fundamental right to marry" that a state can not restrict unless it meets the court's "heightened scrutiny" standard. Using that standard, both courts struck down state bans on same-sex marriage.[29][30]
Two other courts of appeals, the Seventh and Ninth Circuits, struck down state bans on the basis of a different line of argument. Instead of "fundamental rights" analysis, they reviewed bans on same-sex marriage as discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. The former cited Loving to demonstrate that the Supreme Court did not accept tradition as a justification for limiting access to marriage.[31] The latter cited Loving as quoted in United States v. Windsor on the question of federalism: "state laws defining or regulating marriage, of course, must respect the constitutional rights of persons".[32]
The only Court of Appeals to uphold state bans on same-sex marriage, the Sixth Circuit, said that when the Loving decision discussed marriage it was referring only to marriage between persons of the opposite sex.[33]
You deal with it bro. The worm has turned. Now you guys have to deal with not being able to discriminate at will. If you try to exercise your "right" to discriminate, you will get sued and put out of business.I have a right to bake cakes, I have a right to sale cakes, I have a right to not bake a cake for you.
Deal with it.