Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? sigh

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

How is he being disingenuous by pointing out the implications of this law?

The whole fucking point of this law, everyone pushing for it, want to use it to protect people that want to discriminate against homosexuals. It has absolutely fuckall to do with freedom, except the "freedom" to be a bigot against gays.

Tuco · Apr 3, 2015

Cad_sl said:
Tuco how do you not see this as a "well fuck you, then" since the religious people are clearly losing the war against gay marriage? Fine, you can get married, but fuck you I won't bake you a cake. I won't take your picture. FUCK YOU GAYS!

It's pretty sad really. It's something I'd expect of a 5 year old.

Couching it in some "freedom to exercise my religious principles to discriminate" is nothing more than legal mumbo jumbo (yes thats a technical term) for bald-faced legalized wide-scale discrimination. Are you ok with that?

No, I'm not. I think the law should be struck down and probably will be.

My core argument here is this: If you disagree with something, and are asked to do some work that is directly impacted by that something, you shouldn't be forced to do it. Especially if your ability to perform at that work is diminished because of it. Ex: A marriage counselor who hates gay marriage and is asked to counsel a gay marriage.

hodj · Apr 3, 2015

Keeton v. Anderson-Wiley | American Civil Liberties Union

Jennifer Keeton, a student at Augusta State University (ASU), sought a court order requiring ASU to reinstate her in a graduate-level counseling program even though she insisted on a right - rooted in her religious beliefs - to counsel lesbian, gay and bisexual clients that being gay is immoral. ASU's counseling program requires its graduate students to adhere to the American Counseling Association's Code of Ethics, which prohibits counselors from discriminating based on sexual orientation, among other characteristics, and requires them to avoid imposing their values on their clients. The American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU of Georgia filed a friend-of-the-court brief supporting ASU's right to require its students to comply with these professional standards when counseling clients.

Status: The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit held that a public university graduate counseling program can require its students to follow the American Counseling Association's Code of Ethics. The court rejected Ms. Keeton's claims that her rights to religious freedom and free speech under the United States Constitution barred the university from enforcing the code of ethics in her case.

The code of ethics is too long to copy and print here, but here is the link to it

http://www.counseling.org/resources/...-of-ethics.pdf

I believe you will find in sections A, B, C and I cover these sorts of topics rather thoroughly, and the responsibility on the counselor is to provide services regardless their personal subjective beliefs.

wormie_sl said:
If it causes no harm to not treat the patient, then the doctor can tell the patient to fuck off for any reason he chooses.

Just because you can assert it, doesn't make it true.

In fact you're demonstrably wrong.

Therage · Apr 3, 2015

He's not jumping from subject to subject. He made this same argument at the beginning of this thread. The thing is this is a slippery slope that will not move the country forward in a progressive way. This law will only move us backwards. Religious people should just move the fuck out of my country if you don't like it. Go live in Canada and Mexico if you don't want to serve everyone equally. I mean for fuck sake its ok for gay people to die in our military protecting these stupid mother fuckers rights, but it's not ok for them to buy cakes or get psychiatric help if needed? Fuck that.

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

wormie_sl said:
If it causes no harm to not treat the patient, then the doctor can tell the patient to fuck off for any reason he chooses.

Actually, they can't. Now you may, like Siddar, want the world to be one way. However, it's the other way.

hodj · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
No, I'm not. I think the law should be struck down and probably will be.

My core argument here is this: If you disagree with something, and are asked to do some work that is directly impacted by that something, you shouldn't be forced to do it. Especially if your ability to perform at that work is diminished because of it. Ex: A marriage counselor who hates gay marriage and is asked to counsel a gay marriage.

That person will actually probably lose their license to practice as they are in violation of their Code of Ethics, in the same way they would be if they developed a sexual relationship with a client.

I gotta go but I'll be back later.

wormie · Apr 3, 2015

khalid_sl said:
Actually, they can't. Now you may, like Siddar, want the world to be one way. However, it's the other way.

Doctors can and do deny to treat a patients. They cant tell a patient to get the fuck out because they like to suck cock but they can certainly say that they cant treat them and ask them politely to gtfo due to numerous reasons. This is of course outside special situations like emergencies.

Tuco · Apr 3, 2015

hodj_sl said:
Keeton v. Anderson-Wiley | American Civil Liberties Union

The code of ethics is too long to copy and print here, but here is the link to it

http://www.counseling.org/resources/...-of-ethics.pdf

I believe you will find in sections A, B, C and I cover these sorts of topics rather thoroughly, and the responsibility on the counselor is to provide services regardless their personal subjective beliefs.

Just because you can assert it, doesn't make it true.

In fact you're demonstrably wrong.

Can counselors/psychiatrists decline a patient for personal reasons that would cause them to perform poorly? To me the job of psychiatry is much more personal than a doctor. Someone who felt they would do a poor job because of their personal bias should feel responsible for declining.

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 3, 2015

Yo Tuco, you mean to be posting all of this under your alt account, a_skeleton_03?

wormie · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
Can counselors/psychiatrists decline a patient for personal reasons that would cause them to perform poorly? To me the job of psychiatry is much more personal than a doctor. Someone who felt they would do a poor job because of their personal bias should feel responsible for declining.

That example isnt even about a trained and licensed professional. Its about a dumb ass student who did not know to keep her mouth shut.

Arbitrary · Apr 3, 2015

wormie_sl said:
Doctors can and do deny to treat a patients. They cant tell a patient to get the fuck out because they like to suck cock but they can certainly say that they cant treat them and ask them politely to gtfo due to numerous reasons. This is of course outside special situations like emergencies.

Right. Like if they don't treat Asians you just make up a reason and send them out the door. Eventually they'll figure it out and there won't ever be consequences for discriminating based on your dislike of Asians.

Therage · Apr 3, 2015

Maybe they shouldn't suck at their jobs. Or conversly pick a field where they don't have to deal with that. It's not hard. If you're an asshole don't pick a field where people lives and happiness depend on you not being an ass hole.

wormie · Apr 3, 2015

Arbitrary_sl said:
Right. Like if they don't treat Asians you just make up a reason and send them out the door. Eventually they'll figure it out and there won't ever be consequences for discriminating based on your dislike of Asians.

The argument is that doctors cant deny service. That is clearly false. Doctors can and do deny service all the time.

Cad · Apr 3, 2015

Tuco_sl said:
Can counselors/psychiatrists decline a patient for personal reasons that would cause them to perform poorly? To me the job of psychiatry is much more personal than a doctor. Someone who felt they would do a poor job because of their personal bias should feel responsible for declining.

I think the counselors/psychiatrists have probably heard so much fucked up shit in their careers that they really don't give two shits whether a guy likes to cornhole other dudes in his spare time. Thats probably the least offensive thing they heard THAT DAY.

Like as lawyers you get over the whole "I don't represent drug offenders" or "I don't represent guilty people" thing right quick. It's a job, do your fucking job.

Arbitrary · Apr 3, 2015

wormie_sl said:
The argument is that doctors cant deny service. That is clearly false. Doctors can and do deny service all the time.

Why are you responding to me? I agree with you. If you don't like chinks or Kang nogs you just make up some excuse and send them on there way. You can them to fuck off for any reason you chose.

Therage · Apr 3, 2015

So on a side note. Can I start a business selling weed in Indiana as Holy sacrament and not be arrested? Since it's part of my religion. Or what about meth? Or am I only allowed to deny business to people I seem unworthy of my gods view points?

wormie · Apr 3, 2015

Arbitrary_sl said:
Why are you responding to me? I agree with you. If you don't like chinks or Kang nogs you just make up some excuse and send them on there way. You can them to fuck off for any reason you chose.

Fuck you I respond to who I want. Now I demand we pass a law making me a special protected class since you are discriminating against me. Do it now.

khalid · Apr 3, 2015

wormie_sl said:
The argument is that doctors cant deny service. That is clearly false. Doctors can and do deny service all the time.

Doctors can and do deny service all the time. However, if they do it based on race or sex, they are going to get in loads of trouble.

ZyyzYzzy · Apr 3, 2015

TheRage_sl said:
So on a side note. Can I start a business selling weed in Indiana as Holy sacrament and not be arrested? Since it's part of my religion. Or what about meth? Or am I only allowed to deny business to people I seem unworthy of my gods view points?

Only the later, and also only if they are gay sadly

Intrinsic · Apr 3, 2015

My wife's Clinical Ethics course book and notes are on the bookcase sitting next to the computer, so was flipping through it for funnsies! (actually since she got her PhD a while ago this one was the older code, so looked up the latest one on the intertubes) According to the APA Ethics Code for conflict of interest it states:

APA Ethics Code_sl said:
3.06 Conflict of Interest
Psychologists refrain from taking on a professional
role when personal, scientific, professional, legal, financial, or
other interests or relationships could reasonably be expected
to (1) impair their objectivity, competence, or effectiveness in
performing their functions as psychologists or (2) expose the
person or organization with whom the professional relationship
exists to harm or exploitation.

Principle E also states:

Principle E: Respect for People's Rights
and Dignity
Psychologists respect the dignity and worth of all people,
and the rights of individuals to privacy, confidentiality,
and self-determination. Psychologists are aware that special
safeguards may be necessary to protect the rights and welfare
of persons or communities whose vulnerabilities impair autonomous
decision making. Psychologists are aware of and
respect cultural, individual, and role differences, including
those based on age, gender, gender identity, race, ethnicity,
culture, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, disability,
language, and socioeconomic status, and consider these factors
when working with members of such groups. Psychologists
try to eliminate the effect on their work of biases based
on those factors, and they do not knowingly participate in or
condone activities of others based upon such prejudices.

Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? *sigh*

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Indiana...Religious Freedom eh? sigh