Kids? or No kids?

I don't understand why NOT having kids can be considered selfish at all. If you like your free time and money, you affect no one by not having kids (because your kids don't exist, duh?).

If you have a kid, you'll likely have trouble sleeping well for a few years. This will affect your ability to focus at work and on your other endeavors. Say you're a doctor and have a kid, then you wouldn't be able to have enough mental energy and clarity (from lack of sleep) to properly treat patients. Even if you were some software engineer at a company, your work would likely be poor while your baby wakes you up every night.

From a logical standpoint, it just seems like having a kid would actually impede your potential to contribute to society, especially since many people have kids in their middle-late 20s, which is considered to be the best time to formulate new ideas.

I don't think you know much about what it is like to have kids, and your logic is silly. People can do whatever they want with their lives, if they don't want kids then they don't want kids. Personally, when I hear people making arguments about free time and stuff it seems like immaturity to me. But I don't really care, like I said it is their life.

chaos_sl said:

I don't think you know much about what it is like to have kids, and your logic is silly. People can do whatever they want with their lives, if they don't want kids then they don't want kids. Personally, when I hear people making arguments about free time and stuff it seems like immaturity to me. But I don't really care, like I said it is their life.

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Yes, I agree with you that people can do what they want, but rationalizing it a certain way is bound by reason and logic. Like I said, I don't understand how someone can rationalize not having children as being selfish. It actually seems more reasonable to say that having a child IS selfish.

I don't agree with that at all either., it doesn't seem the least bit reasonable to me. It seems like trying to turn the tables, not based on any kind of rational thought at all. But that was already hashed out earlier in the thread.

zzeris_sl said:

Cosmic, some of your ideas are spot on but you have a poor way of stating your opinion. It sounds trollish even though you make some good points. Your last point isnt one of them though. Your contribution to society is what you make of it. Single people get drunk, high, party, fuck anything that walks, dont care, etc,etc. Just because you are single, doesn't mean you are contributing to society more. A parent can see a different viewpoint, will work harder to support his kid, finds new empathy, and finds new levels of resolve they didn't know they had. i've seen the shy turn vocal and the anti-social do class trips because kids change you. It's not all roses and many parents fuck up from the start but your statements are way too general and set on a foundation of dirt. Mine are just as general but from the other viewpoint and both of us are right...sometimes.

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Yes, you're right about kids having the potential to change their parents, and yes, single people aren't necessarily contributing to society. I do realize that my statements are too general because I'm really just referring to myself (what an asshole!)

Sorry, I'm talking about myself now. The thing that bugs me is that having a kid will limit my potential to affect society. I think I have a lot of good skills and can use them to change a lot of peoples' lives. I also know that I would enjoy having kids, but I tend to plan and organize my life based on results rather than sensual / mental stimulation. I wouldn't mind having kids, but personally, I think it'd be a selfish decision because I know I can do more without them.

The reason I'm argumentative about this topic is that I think my situation is partly true for most people. Even a single person who currently just parties / spends his free time playing games, his potential to benefit society is a lot better if he doesn't have kids. Again, I'm just thinking this based on averages and not targeting any specific person. It's difficult for me to comprehend that any decent person (not the "drunk, high, don't care" people you're talking about) doesn't agree that they can do more to benefit society without having kids (which is maybe why intelligent people are less likely to have kids?). It's a bad idea on my part to go into this argument, since it's convoluted and difficult to quantify and apply to individual cases. My ideas are poorly stated because I don't have an hour to think deeply and put them into words; I also have poor writing skills - although my grammar is usually decent.

See, I think you have just decided that having kids would limit you somehow and you're rolling with that. It isn't true. I'm doing a hell of a lot more with my life now with 3 kids than I was before I had them. I don't feel limited, quite the opposite, I feel that my family empowers me. I'm not saying you have to have kids or even should, I just think that your central premise is off. You can have kids and still use those skills to change people's lives, you might even find that they motivate you.

Lets be honest though, having a kid does limit you. You may not mind it personally, but for a large portion of their early life its an undeniable fact. You're working with less free time, often less disposable cash, and in a lot of cases less time with other adults and/or your spouse.

I have two brothers that are wonderful parents, their kids are great, etc. Neither has the freedom to do what they want like I do. I'm not saying my viewpoint is the better one or I'm a happier person for it or whatever, just that from a pure numbers perspective it's undeniable. They're both happy with their decisions, as I am with mine.

I don't know why you're so concerned about people living their lives as "unselfish." I'm selfish as shit. What's wrong with that? I'm considerate and not a complete asshole, so I don't see why I can't be allowed to do whatever the fuck makes me happy. Would kids hamper that? Absolutely. And...?

Kids.

Skrala_sl said:

Lets be honest though, having a kid does limit you. You may not mind it personally, but for a large portion of their early life its an undeniable fact. You're working with less free time, often less disposable cash, and in a lot of cases less time with other adults and/or your spouse.

I have two brothers that are wonderful parents, their kids are great, etc. Neither has the freedom to do what they want like I do. I'm not saying my viewpoint is the better one or I'm a happier person for it or whatever, just that from a pure numbers perspective it's undeniable. They're both happy with their decisions, as I am with mine.

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In a universe with finite resources, of course there are limitations, from everything, not just kids. If you want to be in a top tier guild in some shitty MMO you have to make sacrifices. If you want to 100% the latest coat of paint that Nintendo slapped over the Zelda franchise, you have to sacrifice. Kids are no different in that respect, sure. But I don't agree that having kids means you are automatically less able or willing to benefit society as a whole. Like I said, for me it is exactly the opposite, my kids empower me to achieve more than I would have otherwise.

I think it's just time to admit you're a breeder Chaos.

Just admit it. Confession will free your soul.

I've never had kids. But it's for entirely personal reasons. I suppose you could call that selfish, but I don't know what else personal reasons would or could be. Kinda like calling water wet.

Trying to make an intellectual argument out of it pro or con strikes me as... crippled. Just the other day I was talking to a friend of mine. She's about 10 years older than me and has been fostering children. She's in the process of adopting a seven year old. We were talking about that for a while and she asked me why I don't have any children. I had to think about it a minute to get it into a form she would understand and that form turned out to be, "It's not that I dislike children. I like children just fine. I just wouldn't know what to do with them." I thought that was a pretty decent answer. But she was kinda confused by it. She said, "Well you just take care of them and you play with them."

Yeah.. I mean, pretty much.

It's really not an intellectual argument. hehe.

BrutulTM_sl said:

If you really think that's what makes you happy then go for it. Personally, I don't want to be laying on my death bed thinking "well, nobody benefited from my existence but at least I didn't have to do too much stuff that I didn't want to do, hooray for me." It's my personal belief that living your life in service of no one but yourself will not lead to personal satisfaction but I've been wrong before.

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You might think of it that way, but maybe the person lying on their deathbed was able to go on that African safari they always wanted to go on, start their own business or pick up and move to another country. Perhaps those memories alone make it all worth it in their mind.

Several psychologist/psychiatrists in my family, and I remember a discussion about this very subject. Firstly, there are several studies that show an inverse correlation to happiness in the first few years of having children. The financial, social, and temporal burden is significant, and this takes a toll. However, adults with underage children in the house are less likely to suffer from depression. Next, children are almost universally considered the best part about reaching advanced age. Surveys/studies of senior citizens repeatedly show that there is very little to look forward to in old age except grandchildren. Lastly, deathbed interviews that inquire of regrets/best things people did in their lives, having children rarely is regretted, and is often noted amongst the best things in their lives in retrospect.

The psychology of happiness is such that people have a good idea what makes them happy at any given moment, but less of a clue as to what makes them happy long term. This is know as the hedonic treadmill. Things that make us happy now do not necessarily produce happiness in the future, and indeed may negatively affect happiness.