League Of Legends

Their business model doesn't really turn me off. I don't mind spending what is equivalent to one Jack and Coke on a champ or two if they're on sale. Its a business, they have to make money and I really enjoy their product. It's a completely free game, so I don't really have a problem with it and I don't expect to have a "complete game" for free these days.

Plus, you can buy champs for free with IP if you grind it out. I don't see that as a big deal honestly. DOTA has a completely open roster, that's a plus in their column, but to me it's about gameplay and friends. And friends > gameplay almost all the time.

Well its easy to say if something is worth this cheapo item in the real world its not a big deal, but isn't it equivalent to paying for mini-updates? DLC is already a hot topic with many games and this seems like it would be comparable. Maybe you could make the argument that not every champion is part of the core game and its 'bonus' content, but when you're having to play against those champions that argument doesn't work in my mind. And if people don't have the IP, how many suckers do you think buy a new champion off the bat with real money? Especially the ones (which there have been, even when I still played) that are overpowered, even slightly. Other than the fact that Riot openly tries to segregate events that LoL and Dota 2 are attending, I think Riot as a whole are bad for the industry in their current form.

Though of course the friend argument is always a good argument. No one wants to game alone, especially in a moba.

Edit: There are some real gems in that reddit post that describe some differences, not so much discussing gameplay, but why Riot does what they do and how they go about doing it. IE: Lack of replays, nerfing/buffing champs, segregating events, etc.

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The last time there was a large outcry about Riot segregating events it turned out that Valve just didn't want to pay for the exposure. Are people still going on about that bullshit and thinking its Riot's fault?

I don't think there is currently a large outcry, it was just one (probably the least mentioned) talking points of many about Riot's business practices.

Most of the arguments are wrong anyway. Riot doesn't always release OP champs out of the gate, there are a number they released which really weren't that strong day 1. They do their best to tune them so that they are strong enough that people buying them won't regret it day one and it's a fine line of course, but Jinx is the only one in recent memory that was broken powerful the day she was released. If I'm not mistaken they had to buff Lucian after his release.

Maybe I phrased it poorly. I don't believe there is a large outcry about it currently. I meant that the last time Riot was accused of segregating a competitor (DotA2) from a major event was a recent PAX event. Even had an absolutely massive thread on both the DOtA2 and LoL reddits. It then came out, from, Valve themselves no less, that they just didn't want to pony up the money for event attendance. Something similar happened with HoN a couple of years back as well.

As far as their business practices go? None of it really bothers me, especially as a long term player. Outside of skins I haven't spent money on the game in like a year and a half. I've been able to buy each new champ with the in game currency upon release. For a new player sure its going to be a time consuming grind or they hit your wallet, but that is kind of the point. I also feel that Riot has become substantially better at releasing champions. Some come in a little OP or UP but none aside from Jinx and Lucian have required major quick balancing because they either had too much or to little effect on the game at their release.

DeLLy_sl said:

Well its easy to say if something is worth this cheapo item in the real world its not a big deal, but isn't it equivalent to paying for mini-updates? DLC is already a hot topic with many games and this seems like it would be comparable. Maybe you could make the argument that not every champion is part of the core game and its 'bonus' content, but when you're having to play against those champions that argument doesn't work in my mind. And if people don't have the IP, how many suckers do you think buy a new champion off the bat with real money? Especially the ones (which there have been, even when I still played) that are overpowered, even slightly. Other than the fact that Riot openly tries to segregate events that LoL and Dota 2 are attending, I think Riot as a whole are bad for the industry in their current form.

Though of course the friend argument is always a good argument. No one wants to game alone, especially in a moba.

Edit: There are some real gems in that reddit post that describe some differences, not so much discussing gameplay, but why Riot does what they do and how they go about doing it. IE: Lack of replays, nerfing/buffing champs, segregating events, etc.

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I don't equivocate champs with DLC, so I don't agree on that front at all. If I had to pay for the different maps and game modes then I would agree with you.

To the argument about playing against new champs, I can't see this either. If you're worried about going against OP champs, you're probably in the low end of the spectrum as far as skill (especially if you're not even level 30 yet). At this point champs mean almost dick because at that point any champion can work.

I don't know about segregating events. What do you mean by that? As far as replays are concerned, yeah that's pretty shitty. Doesn't effect me anyway because I don't play seriously enough to rewatch my games.

Edit:
I see people have commented on new champs already, from a new players POV, the first new champ that was released when I came on was Aatrox. Since then there was Jinx and Lucian and the only champ that was OP/strong at release was Jinx. Aatrox was just tough until you learned what he could do with his passive.

Not being a fanboy, but this is the dumbest argument ever. Don't you hate how a business makes decisions based on making money! So dumb! The NFL constantly makes choices on increasing revenue. So does every company in the world. You don't think valve doesn't? Just because their champs are free doesn't mean they aren't screwing you in another way or using resources that could go towards champ design to work on other shit.

Riot's model doesn't bother me (not exactly) and I don't agree that champions start OP and then get tuned. Lucian, Lissandra, Nami, Syndra and Quinn all launched balanced/underpowered. Plenty of champions do launch in an overtuned state but it's not an always thing.

What pisses me off about Riot is how fucking slow they are, how they flat out say shit that is not the case, and how they handle balance changes. Highlights include -

1. Saying they didn't want to make any big changes prior to Worlds and then changing the entire landscape with the Trinity buff.
2. Saying they wanted assassins to be better in S3. No, you don't. You always nerf the assassins that are good at their job.
3. Saying they wanted junglers to have more gold in S3. You don't and they didn't.
4. Saying they want junglers and supports to have more gold in S4. No, you don't. That's why you nerfed a whole mess of supports and gutted the quality of all of the jungle items.
5. "We don't enforce the meta." Bullshit.
6. "Yi is carrying too hard at lower ratings and isn't played at higher ratings." Nerf Alpha Strike. Do no additional changes.
7. Awful Olaf rework. They buffed his attack speed in the last patch so look for him to never get tweaked again. See also Trundle.
8. Champions that go actual fullyearswithout being so much as mentioned in a patch (Sion, Gangplank). Reworks that take forever (Heimer). Reworks that completely destroy the old character (Karma). Characters that are dumpstered on purpose and left at dumpster tier for months on end (old Evelyn). Multiple dumpster tier nerfs on a champion in a single patch (Diana). Riot's refusal to address certain issues (Vayne).
9. Low to zero support for Dominion
10. Low to zero support for Twisted Treeline
11. The complete and total fiasco that was Challenger tier at the end of the season.
12. Replays.

In the last half year in terms of content we're looking at some moderate balance changes and a couple new champions. That's it. It's goddamn pathetic. I don't know how you could have 1100 people do so little outside of government work. And I like this game. I like League of Legends a whole lot. The less I pay attention to what Riot employees actually says publicly and on their own boards the better time I have.

Right now it feels like League of Legends is Everquest in the pre-World of Warcraft era. It's a good game, people like it, but the direction we are going in doesn't look all that great. There are a bunch of hungry up and coming games on the horizon and the community is primed to completely jump ship when the first really good new thing comes along.

To me riot and league feels more like wow than eq.. they are too afraid to rock the boat so keep the same safe changes. Champions are overly balanced.

Heroes of the Storm will save us all!

Diana isn't dumpster tier, get out of here.

Lenaldo_sl said:

To me riot and league feels more like wow than eq.. they are too afraid to rock the boat so keep the same safe changes. Champions are overly balanced.

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The S4 changes are really, really big and Ilovewhat they are doing. I can't wait to get in there and move some shit around.

But here's the thing. The stuff that I'm all excited about monkeying with is stuff that they'll end up hating and gutting if any of it proves to be decent. Riot flat out doesn't want the things they say they want in S4. Bot lane is going to be the Wild West and when Riot starts nerfing the shit out of even more support champions and nerfs all their new toys that will probably be it for me. I see nothing but options right now for bot lane but I fear that Riot in a few weeks Riot is going to start hammering it back down to what it was in S2 and S3.

The only thing I don't like right now are the changes to the jungle items. Wriggles is trash, Lizard Elder is now incredibly champion specific, and Spectral Wraith lost all its spellvamp.

The Ancient_sl said:

Diana isn't dumpster tier, get out of here.

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Diana is an example of a champion that received multiple dumpster tier nerfs in a single patch. After IPL5 she saw nerfs to her whole world.

Crescent Strike
Base damage reduced to 60/95/130/165/200 from 70/110/150/190/230
Pale Cascade
Orb detonation damage radius reduced
Adjusted orb hit box to better match the visual effect
Moonfall
Maximum pull distance reduced
Lunar Rush
Cast range reduced to 750 from 900

The orb radius was so low they almost didn't work and 750 range Lunar Rush was shorter than her Crescent Strike. Both of those would later get partially reverted.

Lenaldo_sl said:

Not being a fanboy, but this is the dumbest argument ever. Don't you hate how a business makes decisions based on making money! So dumb! The NFL constantly makes choices on increasing revenue. So does every company in the world. You don't think valve doesn't? Just because their champs are free doesn't mean they aren't screwing you in another way or using resources that could go towards champ design to work on other shit.

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Thanks for keeping the comments constructive until this retarded one. Arb made a good argument why Riot does dumb stuff and how slow they are. Valve has like 3x less employees and they don't all work on Dota and Dota pushes put more content than Riot, oh and its almost all free except the fluff like skins. The NFL does have a shitty business practice as well, but I don't buy shit directly from them. Its not about Riot vs another company, it was just about Riot vs themselves.

Years ago I bitched about LoL not having a proper spectator mode, even when they casted tournaments they just had a sixth man added to the team. Glad to see Riot hasn't changed with their whole replay stance. If it won't make them money why bother? At least not in a timely manner.

The reason I originally posted was because I've become more of a casual gamer because Life, even when I was level 30 back in the day I was playing just enough to afford new champs with IP, no way I could do that now. Considering this is a forum of gamers who mostly likely play more than casually I can see your arguments that time invested or some money spent isn't a big deal. Competition in the moba world is good, I just would like to be able to play without feeling forced to pay, which I already have done for LoL.

Coaching is such a good idea that if I was Riot I would steal it right now and announce it as part of the game for S4 and LCS and Worlds. Competitive teams are now six players.

It would be freak'n awesome, and would give an avenue for retired players to continue to be relevant.

DeLLy_sl said:

I've held onto my account with my Black Alistar skin just in hopes that Riot fixes their business model but I'm getting the feeling it may never happen.

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By fix their business model do you mean tank their profits in order to make you, personally, happy?

If anything, I feel what they are doing with champions now is a lot more casual friendly then it use to be. Beforehand they would release a new champion every 2 weeks. 6300IP every 2 weeks was a fuck load of grinding which basically no casual could ever do, so if you wanted that champ, a lot more people would end up paying RP for it. Now a day they release a new champion every month and 1/2 it seems. Not only do those champions come out balanced (for the most part), it also allows the casual player to be able to get enough in-game currency to not have to spend a single dollar.

I do like Leagues model about started at level 1 and having to go to 30 because that gives you not only a little sense of accomplishment but it also allows you to slowly level up and gain experience in the game with other people hopefully at your level. Yes, trolls and smurfs exist but for the most part you should be playing with other players trying to level up. Also, as a new player, having a select few champions I think it a lot less stressful then a random person starting dota2 for the first time and having 100 heroes to choose from (how many heroes are in dota2 atm?) I pick one of those 100 heroes, no clue where they should be played, no clue what I should build, because in Dota2 you apparently can send any champion to any lane and if you want to carry you build carry items and if you want to support you build support items.

Another thing to note is that DoTA2 is supported by Valve. A company that has been around for quite awhile now, that has massive respect, that has a massive pocket full of cash. League, made Riot. DoTA2 didn't make Valve. So yeah, of course Riot needs to do things to make $$$ from their game otherwise they wouldn't be around. If Valve didn't care for DOTA2 and just threw it to the curb, they could care less because they are still profiting millions from everything else they are working on. Who knows, if it was some new company that was supporting DoTA2 maybe they would have a much different business model then Valve.

I know I mentioned this in another thread but Valve was able to throw 1.6 million dollars at a DoTA2 tournament while the game was still in beta. Riot for instance, didn't support any tournaments for League until Season 1 Championship in June of 2011, which is about 2 full years after their game got released. It was also only a measly $100,000 as a total prize pool. Hell, even the qualifiers didn't have any cash prizes.