Mad Men

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
I also think it isn't fair to say that Megan "wore a mask" to get Don. It's not like she plotted and actively tried to con him into marrying her. She really did love him deeply (I don't see how anyone can doubt that fact) but she gradually changed as a person after they got married. People change; if you're a well-adjusted individual who loves your partner, you deal with it. If you're Don Draper, you go fuck some other broad and drink yourself into a stupor.
Bro, she totally did (And ALL people do, to an extent.). Did she care about Don? Probably, yeah. I don't think anyone is saying she was a complete gold digger who was only superficially in love to get her connections. But she did play up the qualities he enjoyed, while hiding what she wanted to really do--until she found her footing with him and then she slowly used the relationship to get what she wanted. Megan is as shitty as the rest of the people--she's just better at making look like she isn't. What she did to her friend, when the friend asked her to "help" with that TV commercial, was really exemplified the fact that Megan is very good at being, well, two faced (They all are, really, except maybe Peggy and Trudy). Obviously she's not the master of it like Don, but she's the closest on the show,by far.

But all in all, it's just like anything else. These characters are well written in that they are complex. It's totally possible she could have been in love AND using Don at the same time--and the latter was a more powerful draw. Since the show never really spells anything out, it's up to us to decide just how much or each of those camps was the original "Megan"--and given how she treated her friend, and how she went from Mary Poppins, to someone who didn't even like the idea of the kids being around? I'm going to go with she definitely went into this with a lot ambition in mind. But again, that doesn't mean there was no love there--ambitious "marrying" (As opposed to real independents like Peggy) women are rarely the cliche gold diggers that get portrayed in the media. Like all people, they are complex, I'm sure Megan assumed she could have her cake (Loving Don) and eat it too (Get where she wanted.)

All in all, I actually feel for Don in that relationship. He went in as 100% Dick Whitman (They kind of poured the symbolism on heavy with them falling in love in California). He immediately told her who he was--when he got back he neglected his work, and wanted to have children with her and start a good, stable family (What DICK wanted, not Don.) The way he pulled her to PA to have her taste sherbert (Back to Dick's home, to a nice childhood memory)---Don was absolutely genuine with her. Only to find out later Megan was nearly as good at wearing that mask as he was--it probably kicked his self loathing into overdrive.
 

Cantatus

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,437
79
Bro, she totally did (And ALL people do, to an extent.). Did she care about Don? Probably, yeah. I don't think anyone is saying she was a complete gold digger who was only superficially in love to get her connections. But she did play up the qualities he enjoyed, while hiding what she wanted to really do--until she found her footing with him and then she slowly used the relationship to get what she wanted.
I don't think Megan ever really intentionally hid anything from Don. Before they even got together, Megan told Don the whole reason she moved to New York was to pursue acting. Her intent was ever fully explored, but you have to consider they got married, what, a month after they met? Their relationship progressed so fast that they really didn't have time to reveal everything to each other. I also don't think she initially knew she could use Don to advance her acting career. If anything, she was using him to advance her SCDP career (though Don sort of pushed that on her). It wasn't until Don started having her act out ad proposals for clients and her friend brought up the commercial idea that she really made the connection that it could be a stepping stone for her, which was further encouraged when she started realizing how uncomfortable it was to be the boss's wife.

Now, obviously, she isn't completely innocent. It was shitty that she stole the role out from under her friend and shitty that she guilted Don and put him in the uncomfortable position of forcing the commercial director to hire her. That was some obvious insight into the ambitious part of her personality, but I think it's harsh to say she was being intentionally deceptive to Don.

But all in all, it's just like anything else. These characters are well written in that they are complex. It's totally possible she could have been in love AND using Don at the same time--and the latter was a more powerful draw. Since the show never really spells anything out, it's up to us to decide just how much or each of those camps was the original "Megan"--and given how she treated her friend, and how she went from Mary Poppins, to someone who didn't even like the idea of the kids being around? I'm going to go with she definitely went into this with a lot ambition in mind. But again, that doesn't mean there was no love there--ambitious "marrying" (As opposed to real independents like Peggy) women are rarely the cliche gold diggers that get portrayed in the media. Like all people, they are complex, I'm sure Megan assumed she could have her cake (Loving Don) and eat it too (Get where she wanted.)
I also don't agree when it comes to the kids. A big part of the Don and Megan relationship has been exploring the generational gap - the Greatest Generation vs. the up-and-coming lib movement. Don wanted a caretaker. That's what he's always wanted from a woman, and we finally saw this season why that is. I don't think she necessarily was misrepresentative of how she is with children, but there's a big difference between taking care of your boss's children (particularly when that is part of your job description) and having your step-children repeatedly dumped on you when their father has little interest in spending any time with them. Despite being good with his kids, Megan was never going to be Betty 2.0. She's coming of age at a point where women are able to start pursuing their own dreams and make their own decisions, and it never occurred to Don that her dream of acting was anything more than akin to Betty reminiscing about her modeling days.

I don't think she lied. I think she was genuine when she her a miscarriage. I think she was also genuine with Don's children. I just think she grew resentful of Don making plans to have them and then forcing Megan to be their mother, especially when Betty and Sally kept trying to put her into the middle of things.

But, at the same time, it's undebatable that things changed between the two of them, and neither of them is blameless in that. Megan used Don, and that caused Don to pull away and never let her in again like when they first met, despite all of Megan's attempts. And if you look at them as being representative of their two generations, this was how it was always going to end. It's no coincidence Megan walks out on Don just before '69.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
to Don's children, she pitied them and now that situation has changed, she would rather pity herself over them.
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
Let's conveniently forget the second half of her line: "At first I pitied them,but now I love them to death"
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
what does that mean. we know what her pity translated into (i.e. affection and attentiveness). What does her love mean?
 

Dabamf_sl

shitlord
1,472
0
Um yall are some crazy woman haters if you think Megan has been anything but an ideal woman. She didn't misrepresent herself - she realized she didn't like advertising and that she should follow her dream. She REALIZED something. That's a normal human thing to do. Peggy and Don and everyone at the agency being miserable people was kind of a catalyst there. She even mentioned how awful they are. As for the kids, Don basically pawned them off on her whenever he wanted at her expense. Yet she still cares for them and takes care of them. She put up with Don being a complete piece of shit for what, 2 seasons now? He's just gotten worse and worse toward her, and she still cares for him and cooks him food and is pretty damn understanding. Then he tells her let's move to Cali then (a) day(s) later just says no, AFTER she already quit her drop as an actress (you know, probably the hardest job on the planet to get), and you tards give her grief for it?

Yall are 100% out of your mind if you think Megan is anything but an ideal woman. Either that or you're forever bitter toward women
 

Lowendtheory_sl

shitlord
218
0
Gotta agree with Dabamf on this. Megan is one of the few genuinely good people on the show and she is constant put in shitty situations by the other characters.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
she lived off his money and his connection, pressures him into giving her the role at the expense of her friend who is poor while she lives the luxury lifestyle. give & take. gonna wait for lithose's response here though. he will put it better than i can anyways.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Bro, Megan's very pretty but she's vacant. She actually chooses to be vacant, and she chooses it a lot. Ideal woman? Dude. Is that all you want?

Sure she's not all bad. No one is. It's easy to hate on her a little bit too much. But Don can do better for himself even if that is just himself.

I'd much rather have Peggy. Even if I get stabbed once in a while and she fucks her boss every now and then instead of me. You take the good with the bad unless there's more bad than good.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
wouldn't want megan. she says all the right things at all the right time. it looks great on face, but things that she does anddoesn't doreally tells something about her...

i think that don and megan represent the modern marriage between overachieving men and women. intense work pressure from both sides often seem to put a nail to their marriage. pretty intense.

would bang trudy any day. shit is gold yo.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Trudy is A++ for sure.

If the only thing Pete accomplishes next season is to repair his very serious fuck ups with Trudy then his character will have a happy ending.
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
Yall are 100% out of your mind if you think Megan is anything but an ideal woman. Either that or you're forever bitter toward women
I like the fact Megan made one dubious, yet understandable, decision over the span of three seasons and suddenly she is a terrible terrible person. Surely, Don who makes five of those decisions per episode deserves better!
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Before they even got together, Megan told Don the whole reason she moved to New York was to pursue acting.
Nope. The first conversation where he learned something about Megan went like this.

Talking about his glocoat ad--she came in to him,after he told her to leave, and began praising his work and asked if he could show it to her.

"Why did you move here?"--Don.
"Well, first of all, it's New York. For an artist it's Mecca."--Megan.
"You're an artist?"--Don.
"I wouldn't say I'm an artist. I'm an artistic person. I majored in literature. I've dabbled in writing and paintingand a little bit of acting."

The rest of this scene is literally spent selling herself about how interested she is in Don's work and how she wants to do this for a living. She makes no mention of acting again until her friend brings it up in California--where she immediately torpedoes the conversation. She does not talk about acting again until she decides to leave SCDP and tells Peggy.

In fact, in this scene, Don tells her he can't sleep with her because he can't afford to make any mistakes right now. Megan is the one who convinces and seduces Don. (Megan then goes back to the business relationship and calls him Mr Draper--strong independence.)

(Seriously, watch this scene again, Season 4 Episode 11--she downplays the acting and uplays everything Don did. Even when Don writes that letter to Tobacco and the office hates him, she comes in and praises it.)


Now, obviously, she isn't completely innocent. It was shitty that she stole the role out from under her friend and shitty that she guilted Don and put him in the uncomfortable position of forcing the commercial director to hire her. That was some obvious insight into the ambitious part of her personality, but I think it's harsh to say she was being intentionally deceptive to Don.
The other points are fine, and you can't really look into someone's head to understand their motivations. However, these two points, combined with her 180 on children, and her attitude toward work (Don did not push her, remember the first time Don had work open in front of her, she requested to see it and told Don how much she wanted to do it--Don said nothing.)--leads me to believe there was a good amount of deception behind her motivations--but again, people are rarely one dimensional, for me it's easily believable that an amount of affection can exist simultaneously with a desire to use another person.

And this season culminated in that display, of the duality of "friends" and people in every character. Look at Roger abandoning Don when his situation deteriorated financially. Or look at Joan with Pete, despite the fact that she admits Pete's been the only straight person with her at the firm and promising her she'd be on the account. People wear their masks--it's what people do.


I also don't agree when it comes to the kids.
The kids were one element of it though. Breaking this down into subsets to say "Well here she wasn't being deceptive" is not going to work because people aren't built around one aspect of life. Is it possible Megan was just being a great nanny and didn't want kids? Sure. Is it ALSO possible Megan was super-interested in advertising, to the point that the first time they slept together she begged Don to see his notes, and then all the sudden becomes disinterested to the point where she gets annoyed when work calls? Sure. Is it ALSO possible that she is an incredibly independent woman who makes it a point to tell Don "Well, this is my money" (Or how she was sexually independent after the first time they slept together and told him it was a one off thing) when they were first married--and then goes onto be a woman who literally throws herself on the bed crying because Don won't help her (So strong, interdependent to child?)? Meh, I'm seeing a pattern.

People can change, sure. But when patterns emerge, it's silly not take notice of them. All of the above happened. Judging Megan by the sum of her parts is all we can do. For me the biggest thing wasn't the children, or her jump from advertising--it was actually going from being independent and making a big show of NOT using Don's power (There is a line where she says it's her money, and then she tells Don she doesn't want him to interfere in the office, and again, her rejecting his attempts to talk about their sexual liason)--to a woman who is bawling on the bed like a child for Don to fuck over her best friend and pull strings to get her a part.

It was a pretty stark 180, and jarring for me. I'd never, ever--ever--expect a strong, independent woman like Season 4 Megan to throw a tantrum and cry on a bed to get what she wants, ever. Would I expect her to ask Don for help? Of course. Who wouldn't exploit some sway if they had it. But to throw a fit like a little kid? Meh. I think we were shown a core of Megan's character there, and given all the other deep changes, I doubt it can all be written off has her "changing"--I think she was always that way, but she adapted to her environment, like all people do, when she was a secretary and getting to know Don.

But, at the same time, it's undebatable that things changed between the two of them, and neither of them is blameless in that. Megan used Don, and that caused Don to pull away and never let her in again like when they first met, despite all of Megan's attempts. And if you look at them as being representative of their two generations, this was how it was always going to end. It's no coincidence Megan walks out on Don just before '69.
Don is not blameless--he's half the problem for sure. His inability to accept his own difference between what he shows the world (Don) and what he is (Dick) is what makes him incapable of building relationships. All people do this, to a certain a degree. It's very rare that you get a Trudy or a Mrs Draper--it's not possible. Megan did sell herself as something she wasn't--but that doesn't make her bad (Though I'd say she isn't good, either.). If Don wasn't so broken, he could have grown with the other (Ambitious) facets of her personality and embraced her for who she was. Don can't do that, because he is broken himself.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Yall are 100% out of your mind if you think Megan is anything but an ideal woman. Either that or you're forever bitter toward women
Yall are 100% out of your mind if you think Megan is an ideal woman. Either that or you're forever in need of new pussy and are completely blind to any flaws a woman has because of it.

See, I can do it to. Having an honest, and objective discussion about someone's flaws=/=laying the blame of everything at their feet. Megan has some seriously shitty qualities. That does not make her a bad person, nor does it make her bad overall. She is, however, good at selling herself--she is, in almost every way, Don's doppelganger in female form. (So, for example, I think she COULD have become as bad as Don if she started her life in the same kind of shitty way he did. Her severity is a result of not being as deep in the crap from the get go.)

Think about what the office said about Megan. "She's just one of those girls that's good at everything"---Think about what Don is. Don has literally been able to fit in anywhere, become what's needed, be great at it, and climb to the top. Being the quiet guy who is smart enough to enchant rich vagabonds? Don can do it. Pretending to be a dead engineer? Don's got it. Car Salesman? Awesome. Fur? Great. Attracting a model despite being poor by passing yourself off as a man of means? Don did it.

Megan, in a lot of ways, mirrors Don. That's why she's such a great character. She's kind of a mini-Don, just less crappy overall because she doesn't hate herself (Because she's never needed her facade to actually *survive*--only to get ahead, which again, is something all people do).

I like the fact Megan made one dubious, yet understandable, decision over the span of three seasons and suddenly she is a terrible terrible person. Surely, Don who makes five of those decisions per episode deserves better!
I don't think anyone says Don deserves better. A judgement of one person shouldn't be a reflection on the other. Attempting to lay blame is a classic sign of misdirection--Don is as much at fault as Megan. But saying Megan is an "ideal" woman is just someone stripping her ugly qualities out because she is a woman. But her ugliness has no bearing on how bad/ugly Don is (Which is ridiculous.)

Don fell in love with what Megan broadcast--when he realized there was far more to her, his own ghosts prevented him from growing the relationship. Is it Megan's fault? No. Is it Don's? I'd say no. It was just bad luck that these two people with very compatible facades, had completely incompatible "deeper" persona.
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
Let's conveniently forget that Megan never misrepresented herself and that she is, in fact, good at everything she does. What an abominable flaw!

Oh and Iannis said "But Don can do better for himself even if that is just himself." I'll concede it's not the same as saying he deserved better.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Let's conveniently forget the second half of her line: "At first I pitied them,but now I love them to death"
That's not what she said.

"You want to be alone with your screwed up kids."-Megan
"Don't say that"-Don
"I love them to death. I used to feel pity for them, but now I realize we're all in the same boat." (Hides her face at the start of saying this.)
"I know you're upset. But I'm going to be out there all the time, with you. We'll be bi coastal...Megan, I love you." (Don--standing down in the pit of the house as Megan rises away from him.)
"I can't do this. I can't be here right now." (Gets her red and black coat, note Price's tie in his death episode, and leaves.)

Yeah, you can say I read too much into things--but I don't think these scenes are set up by accident this way. And the way the dialogue went, makes her statement very different. And Trollface's version is much closer to how it was. She does love them, but at first she pitied them, but now she doesn't. Take from that what you will, but I think the order of the dialogue and how it's said is very important in these scenes.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Let's conveniently forget that Megan never misrepresented herself and that she is, in fact, good at everything she does. What an abominable flaw!

Oh and Iannis said "But Don can do better for himself even if that is just himself." I'll concede it's not the same as saying he deserved better.
No one said that was a flaw? Show me where that was said.

Being good at those things allows her to build facades in order to realize her ambitions--being good at them is not the flaw. It'showthey are used. Don was not flawed when he sold cars, despite using the same abilities Don Draper used in Advertising. For example, the first REAL flaw of Don's we are shown is obviously him assuming Draper's identity--but his first real exploitation of it that's not out of absolute fear is with Roger.

What he did to Roger was pretty shitty, think about it. He took a man, who was prone to drink, stuffed him full of liquor and took advantage of him. Again, the first scene with Megan is, in my opinion, not a mistake. Don was drunk and passed out on the couch, Megan had sex with him, and then asked to see his work and said how interesting advertising is. (For an actress? Okay...)
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
The thing is where you see deception and facades and manipulation, I see someone who went to New York from Canada to become an actress, found an entry level job to survive while doing castings and classes, did not make it as an actress, fell in love with her boss, grew interested in copy writing, decided to make it her plan B career, was good at it, realized after a while that her expiration date for her plan A was not up just yet, asked her husband for his blessing and with it tried to go for it. All the while, caring for him, cooking for him, helping him with his job and occasionally taking care of his children from a previous marriage. Where are the flaws? Do you think she is a two-faced psycho who feigned interest in the advertising world and feigned satisfaction when she had good ideas or managed to brilliantly improvise to save an account over a dinner? Do think her master plan was 'Don is drunk: I'll sleep with him, pretend interest in his job, pretend I love his children and soon I'll be married with him and be able to go to castings without having to work!'? This is ridiculous.
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
17,324
4,839
I think she saw an opening, she knew what he wanted in a woman, and she made herself look like that woman. He wanted Peggy but prettier, more subordinate to him, and good with kids. And voila, she is that. Over the course of time that shit all fell away, and you are left with the relationship Don and Megan have now, and the people they are now. Like Lithose said, it isn't anyone's fault, it just is what it is. They made a point of showing how cold and distant she is to the kids now, when that was the thing that seemed to really draw Don to Megan as something beyond a wet hole to fuck. They made a huge plotline out of her acting struggles and her finally fucking over her friend and asking Don to step in. That was huge for both of them and represented a fundamental change in their relationship.