Mad Men

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
The thing is where you see deception and facades and manipulation, I see someone who went to New York from Canada to become an actress, found an entry level job to survive while doing castings and classes, did not make it as an actress, fell in love with her boss, grew interested in copy writing, decided to make it her plan B career, was good at it, realized after a while that her expiration date for her plan A was not up just yet, asked her husband for his blessing and with it tried to go for it. All the while, caring for him, cooking for him, helping him with his job and occasionally taking care of his children from a previous marriage.Where are the flaws?
The flaws are everything she did along the way that you left out. I'm pretty sure I could make Don look like a saint if I dropped a lot of his methods and simply told some superficial connect the dots of his history (Poor boy who boostraped himself for poverty and abuse, who recieved a purple heart and took care of his dead army buddies wife while rising in Manhattan!-Where are the flaws?!?) That being said, everything you said is completely compatible with what I said. As Chaos replied with--nothing(On either side of this argument) that's been said so far makes Megan a psycho. People wear masks, the entire shows theme is about that.

Do you think she is a two-faced psycho
Strawman, and tedious. Is it really that hard to believe someone can fall in love and yet exploit/seduce the object of their affection when they are vulnerable? I'm not sure why you're attempting to reduce characters to shallow, one dimensional representations--they aren't. Megan can be good and bad. Her actions can be driven part by genuine want and part by ambition.

Life isn't one or the other, Szlia. Peoplearen'tpure. And I think most people, not all, give women the benefit of the doubt in that regard. Megan though is every bit as intelligent, savvy, and ambitious as any other character on there. If you think her actions weren't motivated by anythingbutlove, then I thinkthat'sridiculous.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Didn't Don and Megan date for like a hot minute then get married? Can't you put some of that blame on Don for simply jumping the gun on marrying the girl? I think everyone knows that people morph themselves a bit from the start of a relationship towards the latter parts.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Didn't Don and Megan date for like a hot minute then get married? Can't you put some of that blame on Don for simply jumping the gun on marrying the girl? I think everyone knows that people morph themselves a bit from the start of a relationship towards the latter parts.
Don fell in love with what Megan broadcast--when he realized there was far more to her,his own ghosts prevented him from growing the relationship. Is it Megan's fault? No. Is it Don's? I'd say no. It was just bad luck that these two people with very compatible facades, had completely incompatible "deeper" persona.

Totally. Most people are not this sensitive to a little "deception", it's pretty much a given in any human interaction. Don though, he's got some huge ghosts about it and it made some small shifts, which most people would have adapted to, more profound for him. By no means is Megan a villain who did everything wrong. Megan assumed Don was normal, she assumed she could love him AND grow into what she wanted. That was the wrong assumption to make, but that's not her fault. It's just shitty luck--Don thought vacation Megan was real Megan, and that's an incredibly ridiculous standard to hold people to (That they will be honest with you within a month)--but Don did because he's been searching for that pure love, with no ulterior motivations, since childhood.

No human being is going to live up to that--we're not built that way. But what Don wants in a woman is what he said in the Hersey meeting.

"If it was up to me you'd never advertise...." He wants someone who is totally, 100%, genuine from the moment they meet. And yeah, that's all on Don and his self loathing that he wants something so absurd. But at the same time, that doesn't make Megan's flaws less noticeable, or somehow pull them from the equation.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Maybe the issue is Don is simply incapable of loving someone. If you truly love someone as long as they are not wronging you I feel you should be fine with their decisions. Megan wasn't actively wronging Don it is just Don fell in love with this facade Megan initially put up. He never fell in love with Megan as a person.
 

TrollfaceDeux

Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
<Bronze Donator>
19,577
3,743
Don is capable of loving someone and building a friendship. Think his dead friend? maybe he has a terrible expectation. he only likes the beginning of things, etc.

He never fell in love with Megan as a person.
what does that mean.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,657
Well it's hard to fall in love with someone "as a person" in the first five minutes. Which is how that storyline really played out. They got married in a fever! Don was rebounding hard, Megan saw an opportunity. They took advantage of each other at the same times as they were genuinely infatuated with each other. Don was infatuated with her for about half a season. Megan was infatuated for longer, granted, maybe an entire season. Megans also 10 years younger and 10 years dumber. That's what I took away from those multiple scenes of Megan crying in front of the television throughout the civil unrest where Don would be more like, "Guh. Just turn it off". I think there was a scene where that exact thing happened. There was def a scene at the awards where megan asks, "are we really going to stay and do this?" and Don says, "Well, what else are we gonna do?". It goes to Megan's worldview. It's less coldly calculating than it's just innocently niave (kinda dumb)-- but it's a little bit of both.

And nah I didn't mean that Don deserved better. I just meant that Don can DO better. It's not really about deserve. Don doesn't really "deserve" 50% of the shit that happens to him, good or bad.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Don is capable of loving someone and building a friendship. Think his dead friend? maybe he has a terrible expectation. he only likes the beginning of things, etc.



what does that mean.
It means you love someone for who they are at the core of their values. Megan, outside of maybe not loving children as much, hasn't really changed her core values. She still works and is apparently good at her job. She still seems to take care of Don and love him completely. It isn't shown she is sleeping around or anything like that. It is just Don fell in love with just a few aspects of her and mistook it for genuine, lasting love. I think pretty much all people have gone through a whirlwind relationship like that at some point in their lives. It is just Don mistakenly got married while riding this high of emotion. As far as I can tell Megan still loves Don -- or at least kept loving him longer than Don loved her.
 

Cantatus

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,437
79
"Why did you move here?"--Don.
"Well, first of all, it's New York. For an artist it's Mecca."--Megan.
"You're an artist?"--Don.
"I wouldn't say I'm an artist. I'm an artistic person. I majored in literature. I've dabbled in writing and paintingand a little bit of acting."
I'll concede on that. I remembered it coming up and theWikiphrased it that way.

In fact, in this scene, Don tells her he can't sleep with her because he can't afford to make any mistakes right now. Megan is the one who convinces and seduces Don. (Megan then goes back to the business relationship and calls him Mr Draper--strong independence.)

(Seriously, watch this scene again, Season 4 Episode 11--she downplays the acting and uplays everything Don did. Even when Don writes that letter to Tobacco and the office hates him, she comes in and praises it.)

The rest of this scene is literally spent selling herself about how interested she is in Don's work and how she wants to do this for a living. She makes no mention of acting again until her friend brings it up in California--where she immediately torpedoes the conversation. She does not talk about acting again until she decides to leave SCDP and tells Peggy.
I don't think we disagree that she worked at seducing Don, just that we don't agree on her motivations. Perhaps I'm not giving her enough credit, but I never saw her as thinking that far ahead, just taking advantage when situations (like her friend's commercial) arose. If we're going to compare her to Don, I think her improvisation skills have been impeccable.


The other points are fine, and you can't really look into someone's head to understand their motivations. However, these two points, combined with her 180 on children, and her attitude toward work (Don did not push her, remember the first time Don had work open in front of her, she requested to see it and told Don how much she wanted to do it--Don said nothing.)--leads me to believe there was a good amount of deception behind her motivations--but again, people are rarely one dimensional, for me it's easily believable that an amount of affection can exist simultaneously with a desire to use another person.
I agree it's hard to know the true motivations. We wouldn't be able to have these conversations if the writers felt the need to spell everything out for us. The way I see it, however, there's two interpretations to her motivations: Megan was interested in advertising and used Don as a way of getting her foot in the door. - Or - Megan was interested in Don and used advertising to get her foot in the door.

I think you lean towards the former, while I lean towards the latter. I think she was truly interested in Don and used what she knew about him to get close to him. I think we can argue over how deceptive either is, but I think the motivations play into how we judge those actions.

I initially saw Megan as being Peggy's "road not taken." Both start in the secretarial pool and lucked into situations which provided advancement. For Peggy, that's being noticed by Freddy during the lipstick trials. For Megan, it's Ms. Blankenship dying, allowing Megan to get closer to Don. The difference being, Peggy ultimately pursues the work, while Megan ultimately pursues Don. (Which, I think, leads to Don's disappointment when she decides to quit to become an actress. Megan was psuedo-Peggy up until that moment.)

People can change, sure. But when patterns emerge, it's silly not take notice of them. All of the above happened. Judging Megan by the sum of her parts is all we can do. For me the biggest thing wasn't the children, or her jump from advertising--it was actually going from being independent and making a big show of NOT using Don's power (There is a line where she says it's her money, and then she tells Don she doesn't want him to interfere in the office, and again, her rejecting his attempts to talk about their sexual liason)--to a woman who is bawling on the bed like a child for Don to fuck over her best friend and pull strings to get her a part.

It was a pretty stark 180, and jarring for me. I'd never, ever--ever--expect a strong, independent woman like Season 4 Megan to throw a tantrum and cry on a bed to get what she wants, ever. Would I expect her to ask Don for help? Of course. Who wouldn't exploit some sway if they had it. But to throw a fit like a little kid? Meh. I think we were shown a core of Megan's character there, and given all the other deep changes, I doubt it can all be written off has her "changing"--I think she was always that way, but she adapted to her environment, like all people do, when she was a secretary and getting to know Don.
You're misremembering that scene. Megan approaches Don and just asks to be put in the list of names. Don explains that he can't because of how it looks, to which Megan replies that she'd use her maiden name. He tells her that people from work would be there and recognize her, and that this isn't how she wants. She wants to be "someone's discovery, not someone's wife", to which she says, "You're right. I know you're right." and then tells him to forget she asked. Never once does she cry, throw a tantrum, or act like a child.

Later, Don finds Megan drunk. She tries to have sex with him, but he turns her down, and she says that that's all she's good for - that he won't give her a chance because he wants her waiting at home for him. This isn't an attempt to manipulate Don, but because her mother put these thoughts in her head by shitting all over her dreams (because "The world can't support that many ballerinas") , and telling her she was "an ungrateful bitch" and that she should be happy to have the things Don provides for her, be a good wife, and disparages her for not "giving him a family." Don even realizes this is because of Marie and confronts her for making Megan miserable.
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
17,324
4,839
You seriously think that drunkass Megan scene was not an attempt to manipulate him? Come on.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
I initially saw Megan as being Peggy's "road not taken." Both start in the secretarial pool and lucked into situations which provided advancement. For Peggy, that's being noticed by Freddy during the lipstick trials. For Megan, it's Ms. Blankenship dying, allowing Megan to get closer to Don. The difference being, Peggy ultimately pursues the work, while Megan ultimately pursues Don. (Which, I think, leads to Don's disappointment when she decides to quit to become an actress. Megan was psuedo-Peggy up until that moment.)
Yeah, I agree with this. And the rest are all fair points/opinions. I do tend to see Megan in a harsher light, as you said, but that's partially because I think she's an exceptional person--and I really don't see exceptional people "falling" into things. Exceptional people tend to make their opportunities happen for them.


You're misremembering that scene. Megan approaches Don and just asks to be put in the list of names. Don explains that he can't because of how it looks, to which Megan replies that she'd use her maiden name. He tells her that people from work would be there and recognize her, and that this isn't how she wants. She wants to be "someone's discovery, not someone's wife", to which she says, "You're right. I know you're right." and then tells him to forget she asked. Never once does she cry, throw a tantrum, or act like a child.

Later, Don finds Megan drunk. She tries to have sex with him, but he turns her down, and she says that that's all she's good for - that he won't give her a chance because he wants her waiting at home for him. This isn't an attempt to manipulate Don, but because her mother put these thoughts in her head by shitting all over her dreams (because "The world can't support that many ballerinas") , and telling her she was "an ungrateful bitch" and that she should be happy to have the things Don provides for her, be a good wife, and disparages her for not "giving him a family." Don even realizes this is because of Marie and confronts her for making Megan miserable.
I could have sworn she was crying here..But maybe not, either case it was certainly a tantrum. Have you ever watched a child throw a tantrum? That's what they do, completey exaggerate how "bad" something is (In Megan's case ALL she is good for is babies? Waaa? I guess continuing to go to acting classes and auditions is out? No middle ground? Only babies now?.......Okay.)

If you don't see that as manipulations, as Chaos said :p, I don't know bro.

(I say this because my wife and I laughed at this scene because our son just had a little melt down, the night this aired, when he couldn't do something on a video game and we told him he couldn't practice anymore for the night (Brother's turn to play). He said, I quote..."Well I'll never be good then...All I'll be able to do is sit here and watch (His brother) play, because I'll always be terrible because you don't want me to practice!") lolol--if you have kids, you know that was a tantrum.
 

Cantatus

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,437
79
I could have sworn she was crying here..But maybe not, either case it was certainly a tantrum. Have you ever watched a child throw a tantrum? That's what they do, completey exaggerate how "bad" something is (In Megan's case ALL she is good for is babies? Waaa? I guess continuing to go to acting classes and auditions is out? No middle ground? Only babies now?.......Okay.)

If you don't see that as manipulations, as Chaos said :p, I don't know bro.

(I say this because my wife and I laughed at this scene because our son just had a little melt down, the night this aired, when he couldn't do something on a video game and we told him he couldn't practice anymore for the night (Brother's turn to play). He said, I quote..."Well I'll never be good then...All I'll be able to do is sit here and watch (His brother) play, because I'll always be terrible because you don't want me to practice!") lolol--if you have kids, you know that was a tantrum.
I can see where that interpretation can be made, so I can't really say you or chaos are wrong. To me, it seemed like she was far too drunk to be consciously manipulating Don. If you watch the scene where Megan's mother insults her and then the scene where Megan is drunk, you can see she's just repeating the things her mother said to her - That Don just wants a wife and that she should give up on her dream and stay home and have babies. She's afraid her mother is right. In fact, I don't think Don relents on his decision until after he confronts Marie about her making Megan miserable and she tells him that he should "nurse her through this defeat" so he "can have the life he desires", making Don realize why Megan is so unhappy (which wasn't just about the audition) and where it's coming from.
 

Grimey

Golden Knight of the Realm
335
159
I've never thought that Megan was being deceitful in regards to Don. To me, Megan has always been up front about wanting to be an artist.
"I wouldn't say I'm an artist. I'm an artistic person. I majored in literature. I've dabbled in writing and painting and a little bit of acting."
This to me is a clear indication that Megan is just like and young, dumb "artistic" person. She's dabbled in all these media because she wants to be an artist. She comes on to Don so strongly because 1) he's fuckin Don Draper and 2) she sees this as an opportunity to get in and explore her artistic side via advertising. In the next season, she drops advertising because she's found it's not her cup of tea- she's done "dabbling" in it.

As for the children angle: Young women likes the idea of kids, finds our being a mother is not fun and games and trips to Disneyland- News at 11!
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
Am I wrong or was the decision by Megan and Don to not have children together happened off screen (possibly between season 5 and 6)?
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
Am I wrong or was the decision by Megan and Don to not have children together happened off screen (possibly between season 5 and 6)?
Well, they don't ever have an actual conversation where it's decided they won't have kids. There are three "kids" conversations, I think. One is in the car when Don is drunk and saying he wants to make a baby with her, and she laughs it off, I forget where the other was but Megan avoids the subject I believe (I remember the tone being slightly more series) and then there was this episode (end of season 5). After this, children were not discussed again.
 

Szlia

Member
6,635
1,376
I only remember the mention of it in the beginning of the season after the miscarriage. Now that was a plot point that lead nowhere (it just helped at creating contrast with the mistress I guess).
 

McCheese

SW: Sean, CW: Crone, GW: Wizardhawk
6,922
4,326
I've been pondering which Mad Men character I'm most like in terms of personality, and I've come to the depressing conclusion that I'm either:

a) a much less successful Pete

or

b) a much less charismatic Bob Benson (and minus the gay)
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
I'm probably more like Don minus the adultery and drinking. I pretty much am where I am at my company based upon my talent and certainly not because I'm chummy with people.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,037
I only remember the mention of it in the beginning of the season after the miscarriage.Now that was a plot point that lead nowhere(it just helped at creating contrast with the mistress I guess).
Seriously this. I was totally expecting a big reveal, especially with all the "death" symbolism around Megan. I mean, yeah, now we can say it symbolized the death of their relationship, and maybe her feelings for him--but I seriously thought this was going to pan out into maybe an abortion reveal, or something. Instead it just kind of...sat there.