Marriage and the Power of Divorce

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Tarrant

Tarrant

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Deathwing said:
I think you need to read up on "objective opinions". When it comes to complex issues, of which preferred pronouns is only one facet, I think it's important to set the requirement for debate at objective and remove all feelings from the topic.
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So, again, I’m super high right now so forgive me if I’m mistaken. But are you saying all passion/feelings should be removed from objective opinions? If you want to debate something shouldn’t you be passionate about that topic? Maybe I’m understanding wrong....which wouldn’t be difficult yet at the moment for me.
 
Deathwing

Deathwing

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Tarrant said:
So, again, I’m super high right now so forgive me if I’m mistaken. But are you saying all passion/feelings should be removed from objective opinions? If you want to debate something shouldn’t you be passionate about that topic? Maybe I’m understanding wrong....which wouldn’t be difficult yet at the moment for me.
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I'm not saying you cannot be passionate, but you should try your best to not let that passion taint your reasoning.
 
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Tarrant

Tarrant

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Ah, gotcha. I dunno if I agree with the “taint your reasoning” because that’s always gonna be the opinion of the person with the opposite opinions. I guess I’d go with maybe, dont let it get in the way of listening and being open to the other side? Maybe? I dunno...
 
chaos

chaos

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Deathwing said:
I think you need to read up on "objective opinions". When it comes to complex issues, of which preferred pronouns is only one facet, I think it's important to set the requirement for debate at objective and remove all feelings from the topic.
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Yeah, I'm familiar, sounds like a bullshit concept imo. There's objective truth then there's subjective experience. if it's not A, then it's B, and being human and not the buddha I doubt any of us have been skilled enough to divorce ourselves from experience, feeling, bias, and whatever we don't know that influences us.

But sure, ok, you believe it's important. Enough to cause all this fallout? If so, I mean, who am I to say it isn't? It's your feelings, your family, your life. I don't agree that what you're talking about is logical, but if you do I guess that's one hell of a devotion to logic.
 
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Deathwing

Deathwing

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chaos said:
Yeah, I'm familiar, sounds like a bullshit concept imo. There's objective truth then there's subjective experience. if it's not A, then it's B, and being human and not the buddha I doubt any of us have been skilled enough to divorce ourselves from experience, feeling, bias, and whatever we don't know that influences us.

But sure, ok, you believe it's important. Enough to cause all this fallout? If so, I mean, who am I to say it isn't? It's your feelings, your family, your life. I don't agree that what you're talking about is logical, but if you do I guess that's one hell of a devotion to logic.
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For some topics, subjective experience becomes objective truth at a certain critical mass. I'm not saying subjective experience has no place in the argument. But it needs more than one person to carry any meaningful weight.

Of course humans cannot divorce themselves from feelings and bias. For me, the introspection and attempt to improve is just as good if not better.
 
Cad

Cad

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Tarrant said:
At 9 years old, my special needs son goes to school with a transgender kid his own age.
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So they've got the mentally ill kid whose parents have abused him into thinking he's trans at age 9 in special needs? That seems progressive.
 
Tarrant

Tarrant

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Cad said:
So they've got the mentally ill kid whose parents have abused him into thinking he's trans at age 9 in special needs? That seems progressive.
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That or parents that force stuff on the kid. I don’t know too much about them to be honest. Kid seems to well behaved and treats others nice so that’s all I care about really.
 
Cad

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Tarrant said:
That or parents that force stuff on the kid. I don’t know too much about them to be honest. Kid seems to well behaved and treats others nice so that’s all I care about really.
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Funny how it's also rarely if ever girls who want to be boys, it's always boys that they want to make into girls. Trans is such a privilege and attention seeking scam.
 
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LachiusTZ

LachiusTZ

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Tarrant said:
That or parents that force stuff on the kid. I don’t know too much about them to be honest. Kid seems to well behaved and treats others nice so that’s all I care about really.
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You should care about more

Rapid onset gender dysphoria is real
 
Zaara

Zaara

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Holy fuck, do you guys not have enough threads to argue about trannies in already?
 
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Alex

Alex

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Cad said:
Funny how it's also rarely if ever girls who want to be boys, it's always boys that they want to make into girls. Trans is such a privilege and attention seeking scam.
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Oh you see them in SF. Think there are way less of those because they look fucking terrible. It's like the worst final form of human evolution. Side show looking shit. Looks like a really rough life.
 
Cad

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Alex said:
Oh you see them in SF. Think there are way less of those because they look fucking terrible. It's like the worst final form of human evolution. Side show looking shit. Looks like a really rough life.
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They exist I bet it's 90/10 MtF
 
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Hoss

Hoss

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Deathwing said:
Her justifications are basically feels, those aren't valid.
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If you have any desire to work things out, you need to find a more subtle way to say that. You can acknowledge her feelings without condoning them and then perhaps have a productive conversation. When you start with "Your feelings aren't valid" you make her dig in her heels and nothing will be accomplished but a big fight.

It's up to you. Set aside how you feel about pronoun dude, patriarchy needlework, and feminism shirt (should be easy for you) and decide what you want the end result to be. If you want a divorce, then by all means tell her very loudly how her feelsdata is bullshit.

I won't argue with you one way or the other on what you need to do. That's your decision. Unless you just want to argue with us so it doesn't come out at home. If that's the case, say the word and I'll play my part. I understand how cathartic is can be to argue with the jackasses around here.

Captain Suave said:
until they've developed good critical thinking skills.
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When does that happen? From what I've read and experienced, I'm pretty sure it's not till after they move out on their own.
 
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iannis

iannis

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Maybe the capacity to think critically, which really should start to happen 15-17.

That doesn't mean they will do it often, or do it well, but late adolescence seems to be when the capacity emerges.

I'm not sure if the internet will push that number up or down. Being distrustful of EVERYTHING is not critical thinking, either.
 
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chaos

chaos

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Deathwing said:
For some topics, subjective experience becomes objective truth at a certain critical mass. I'm not saying subjective experience has no place in the argument. But it needs more than one person to carry any meaningful weight.

Of course humans cannot divorce themselves from feelings and bias. For me, the introspection and attempt to improve is just as good if not better.
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Yeah, not sure how you get there. Subjective experience is subjective, that's its defining trait. I can find a million people who will tell me Caitlyn Jenner is hot, how many more do I need before that becomes truth? It can't just be having enough people take a particular side, especially given how popular some of this weird bullshit is that would kind of defeat the point.

You're framing this as if feelings = bad, I just think that's a fundamentally wrong way to think about human emotions. But, more to the point, ^ what Hoss said. Like, all of that. When you tell her that her feelings aren't valid, you may think you're being all stoic and shit, but that isn't how she is receiving it. That isn't how most people would receive that. Especially from someone they're in a relationship with. If it really is this important to you, and you really can't just reframe it, you basically already made your decision you're just spinning your wheels.
 
Deathwing

Deathwing

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chaos said:
Yeah, not sure how you get there. Subjective experience is subjective, that's its defining trait. I can find a million people who will tell me Caitlyn Jenner is hot, how many more do I need before that becomes truth? It can't just be having enough people take a particular side, especially given how popular some of this weird bullshit is that would kind of defeat the point.

You're framing this as if feelings = bad, I just think that's a fundamentally wrong way to think about human emotions. But, more to the point, ^ what Hoss said. Like, all of that. When you tell her that her feelings aren't valid, you may think you're being all stoic and shit, but that isn't how she is receiving it. That isn't how most people would receive that. Especially from someone they're in a relationship with. If it really is this important to you, and you really can't just reframe it, you basically already made your decision you're just spinning your wheels.
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The arguments where the data is by definition subjective requires a much higher amount. A million people saying Caitlyn Jenner is hot is objective proof of something, that's for sure.

I'm not framing this as feelings = bad. I'm saying _JUST_ feelings is bad. You can have opinions based on just feelings, I have lots of them. I do my best to second guess them ask where they came from. Are they appropriate to share with others or maybe I should just keep it to myself? etc etc etc.

And of course I'm not talking to my wife like I post on these forums, that would be stupid. I'm recognizing her feelings but asking for more. I'm asking her to step out of her comfort zone and treat her child as someone she has to convince, not someone she just gets to lazily imprint upon.
 
LachiusTZ

LachiusTZ

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Hoss said:
When does that happen? From what I've read and experienced, I'm pretty sure it's not till after they move out on their own.
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Usually between 16 and 27.

Some 12. Some never.
 
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Izo

Izo

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Cad said:
Funny how it's also rarely if ever girls who want to be boys, it's always boys that they want to make into girls. Trans is such a privilege and attention seeking scam.
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That. It's going to be the next metoo theme. Gender dysphoria equality. A glorious clusterfuck.
 
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