Marriage and the Power of Divorce
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Noodleface
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Eomer
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Figured as much. Didn't sound like you'd had much more than 15-20 drinks over a pretty extended period. I'd be genuinely curious to know what I get up to sometimes, but I don't think those hand held cheapo ones are particularly accurate once you start getting truly blitzed.
McCheese
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I dated a girl who loved to drink. She wasn't an alcoholic, but she loved to party and she could pound down shots with the best of them. It got super tiring very quickly dealing with her when she was drunk. In fact, I hate dealing with all drunk people now. Now non-drinker (or at least really, really occasional drinker) is right up there with non-smoker when I'm evaluating a girlfriend.
Eomer
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We all knew this was coming, sooner or later. Massive wall of text, ho!
Not sure if this post should go here or in the GWBYHT. This one's easier to locate. But it would appear that things with the special lady friend are rapidly coming to an end. I think anyways. She's been very noticeably moody, grumpy, sullen, whatever over the past few months. I had noticed it back in the spring and early summer, but then it seemed to get better for awhile. Then she moved down to Calgary for her 7 weeks of practicum in July/August. We saw each other a few times during that time, and all seemed well, although I could tell she was not pleased that I didn't go out of my way more to go and see her. We took a nice 4 day trip to Portland in August right after she got back, and things again seemed good, but then over the past 6-7 weeks it's deteriorated again.
She just doesn't seem happy, and I'm getting sick of walking on egg shells around her. We're coming up on being together 3 years at the end of the month, and in all honesty I was starting to think it was time to pop the question. But on the other hand, she's never really brought it up much and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get hitched, as she's still got another year and a half of school. Given her negative comments about how much of a pain in the ass a wedding is (her best friend got married in the spring and it was not a pleasant experience for my girlfriend being in the bridal party, she gets stressed out with that kind of shit), I can't see the present issues having anything to do with us not being engaged or married.
Finally last week while making dinner I asked her what was wrong or going on. Was it work? School? Family? Shit between us? She said she'd need a couple hours to gather her thoughts and we'd talk later that evening. When it came time to talking, a rough summary of her concerns were as follows:
1) I don't get mad at her enough
2) I pay for too much stuff (even though admittedly she can't afford to pay any more for day to day expenses)
3) Subsequent to the above two, she feels that I don't consider her an equal partner in our relationship and I don't take her seriously
4) I don't have enough "expectations" for her, which is related to 1)
I was kind of a deer in the headlights when she outlined her concerns. I felt like I was taking crazy pills. 3 and 4 more or less stem from 1 and 2, and in my opinion are her problems and not mine.
I don't get mad at her because she basically never gives me a reason to. She's a pretty spectacular girlfriend in almost every respect, and overall a wonderful human being. Sometimes I get impatient, annoyed or a bit frustrated but I just push that aside and try to deal with whatever is bothering me in a reasonable manner. And somehow that's a problem? She seems to think it is, and said it's not "normal" that we don't ever fight. We literally haven't had what I would consider a fight. There's been arguments where one or the other person was a bit pissed, but nothing where one of us storms out or yells at the other person. The only time I've ever raised my voice at her was when I was concentrating on doing something on a kitchen counter, she reached around me to open a cupboard to grab something, left it open, and I smashed my bare head on the corner of the door so hard I was bleeding. Naturally I was like "WHY THE FUCK DID YOU LEAVE THAT OPEN DIRECTLY OVER MY HEAD" but calmed down immediately once the pain had passed and apologized for yelling at her.
As far as the money issue goes, since we've been together she's mostly worked part time jobs while doing school. Between car payments, insurance, school tuition, books and other day to day things she can't afford to pay me rent, or share utilities. When she moved in the deal was going to be that she'd pay for groceries. That lasted approximately a month before she was flat broke. When her car got stolen two years ago, she ended up buying another car that was well outside what she can afford from the insurance settlement, so I stepped up and chipped in about half of the cost (about 7k). And then a year to 18 months ago when she was upset, it came out that she had maxed her credit cards and needed further help, so I got a secondary Visa, told her she could use that for whatever she felt necessary and also cut her a check to clear off her CC balance (about 6k). She's since gone back in the hole a few thousand. And trust me, she doesn't have a spending problem. She spends next to nothing on shit like clothes and the like, she's actually pretty frugal. The only exception to that is she spends too fucking much money on high end groceries at the farmer's market and bakery down the street (the bread is delicious, but $8 for a loaf that can maybe make half a dozen sandwiches?), but that's all going on my CC anyways and I don't particularly mind as she's a good cook. I've never sat down with her and looked at her budget, but I'm fairly confident that she's not doing anything stupid with her money. In any case, she's in to me for somewhere around 12-15k.
The thing is, I don't give a shit. That money is basically inconsequential to me. And I have never once said anything negative to her about it, or made her feel guilty about it. She said as much when we talked last week, that I've been great about it and she really appreciates the help. But that it makes her feel like she's totally dependent on me and that the relationship's balance is totally skewed because of the finances. She also said she didn't like not knowing what our financial situation even was, what we could afford, what kind of security we had, and so on. I explained that as far as I was concerned, what's mine is hers and we're a team, so I didn't really care that she didn't make much money or needed my help financially. That she does so many things for me that make my life better that it was more than a fair trade. I told her that she was welcome to know anything about my finances she wanted to know, that the only reason we'd never discussed it was that she'd never really expressed an interest or concern previously, and when our relationship started I was warned by a mutual friend not to throw money around as she isn't impressed by that kind of thing. So while I didn't avoid the subject, I never brought it up as she seemed content not knowing. I asked her what she wanted to know about my finances. She didn't really give an answer. So I gave her a general rundown of my present finances (I'M RICH BITCH) and roughly where I thought things were going. That didn't really seem to register in either direction, as far as I could tell.
She had started the entire conversation by saying "I need to pay you back for my car" before we went on to the deeper issues, and we circled back to that. I told her that if she wanted to start paying me back a few hundred dollars a month now that she had gotten a new position and should be making more money, that would be fine by me, but that I felt it better to pay down her CC first. She said she'd been thinking of getting another job to facilitate paying me back. I told her that if that's what she wanted to do, it was up to her, but that I felt it would be a mistake because she'd basically end up doing nothing but working or school and our relationship would further suffer. We left that open for the time being, but she did give me $900 a few days later to pay me back for some books and other stuff she'd put on my CC recently.
Also as part of that conversation when talking about incomes, she said that because I make/have a fair amount of money, her job is always going to "not matter." I told her that's crazy, that she didn't take her chosen career path (child and education psychology) because it was going to pay well or make her rich, and that if we do stay together for the long run our finances would allow her to choose the most fulfilling job she could find. She said that made her feel like her career was a joke or irrelevant. I told her that's absolutely not true, that if anything her career will be a lot more meaningful than mine, which mostly consists of slapping in plumbing in cookie cutter, suburban, shithole condo/apartment projects (with the occasional shiny, glass tower). That's honestly how I feel, I derive little satisfaction from my work/business other than the money, for better or worse. Again, that didn't really seem to make any difference to her.
We moved on to what seemed to be her main concern: that I say all the right things, and do all the right things, but that she doesn't feel like I truly take her seriously, don't consider her an equal partner, and don't have any expectations for her. The expectations thing kind of threw me, and I asked what she meant. She said that it felt like she didn't need to do anything to make me happy with her or our relationship, and asked what expectations I had for her. In all honesty, I was pretty stumped by that question, and still largely am. I told her I expect her to keep doing the things she's been doing around the house and to keep doing well at her education and establish herself in her career. She got frustrated and told me that those things aren't "real expectations". I said that I'd like to do more things together like going on trips, going to the mountains to ski/hike/camp/whatever, but that she basically refuses to do any of that stuff because she's too busy with work and school most of the time. The conservation moved on from there, but like I said, I'm still kind of stumped on that. I don't have any grand expectations of her, other than being happy being with me, wherever that takes us. I dunno, I'm not a "deep" kind of guy, that shit just isn't something I think about.
The topic of kids also came up when we were talking about where things are going long term. She's not eager to have kids right away and may never want them, but she was concerned that if she did decide to have them that I'd not want them, or not be involved enough, or consider them an inconvenience getting in the way of my life. I told her that from my perspective, I'm not particularly interested in having kids at this point, but that could well change down the road, and that if we were together and she wanted kids I'd be 100% invested in it. I couldn't really gauge what she thought of this.
I'm probably forgetting or omitting some shit, but this is getting pretty long and that's the majority of it. We ended the conversation saying that we were both going to give things some thought, but didn't really give a concrete time frame for when we'd revisit any of it. During the conversation I asked her several times if there was anything I could be doing differently and never really got any concrete answer, mostly she went back to the "expectation" thing along with how we weren't equal.
From my perspective, I feel like most or all of this shit resides with her. I'm happy with our relationship, and I'm happy with her. Like I said at the start, she's an awesome woman in virtually every respect. I could absolutely spend the rest of my life with her, but only if she's going to be happy with that. At this point it feels like for whatever reason her feelings for me are dissipating and instead of admitting that to herself she's making up excuses or reasons as to why our relationship isn't working. Also, she's the kind of person who feels a lot of guilt about things, for whatever reason. I'd relate a few anecdotes, but this post is long enough. And I think she's feeling a lot of guilt about needing financial help from me. That coupled with her lessening feelings for me is not helping things.
From my perspective, I'll be pretty upset if we break up, but on the other hand things just haven't been the same the past 6 months. It sucks that I've invested 3 years of my life in this relationship, and quite honestly this might well be my last stab at a relationship that leads to marriage, but if she's just going to be miserable then it's time to tear the band-aid off. I just have a feeling that she isn't going to end it herself, I don't think she has it in her. She'll just keep shutting me out more and more until I end it, and then when I do in her mind it'll validate her thinking that I never truly considered her an equal in the relationship or some shit.
Wut do?
Not sure if this post should go here or in the GWBYHT. This one's easier to locate. But it would appear that things with the special lady friend are rapidly coming to an end. I think anyways. She's been very noticeably moody, grumpy, sullen, whatever over the past few months. I had noticed it back in the spring and early summer, but then it seemed to get better for awhile. Then she moved down to Calgary for her 7 weeks of practicum in July/August. We saw each other a few times during that time, and all seemed well, although I could tell she was not pleased that I didn't go out of my way more to go and see her. We took a nice 4 day trip to Portland in August right after she got back, and things again seemed good, but then over the past 6-7 weeks it's deteriorated again.
She just doesn't seem happy, and I'm getting sick of walking on egg shells around her. We're coming up on being together 3 years at the end of the month, and in all honesty I was starting to think it was time to pop the question. But on the other hand, she's never really brought it up much and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to get hitched, as she's still got another year and a half of school. Given her negative comments about how much of a pain in the ass a wedding is (her best friend got married in the spring and it was not a pleasant experience for my girlfriend being in the bridal party, she gets stressed out with that kind of shit), I can't see the present issues having anything to do with us not being engaged or married.
Finally last week while making dinner I asked her what was wrong or going on. Was it work? School? Family? Shit between us? She said she'd need a couple hours to gather her thoughts and we'd talk later that evening. When it came time to talking, a rough summary of her concerns were as follows:
1) I don't get mad at her enough
2) I pay for too much stuff (even though admittedly she can't afford to pay any more for day to day expenses)
3) Subsequent to the above two, she feels that I don't consider her an equal partner in our relationship and I don't take her seriously
4) I don't have enough "expectations" for her, which is related to 1)
I was kind of a deer in the headlights when she outlined her concerns. I felt like I was taking crazy pills. 3 and 4 more or less stem from 1 and 2, and in my opinion are her problems and not mine.
I don't get mad at her because she basically never gives me a reason to. She's a pretty spectacular girlfriend in almost every respect, and overall a wonderful human being. Sometimes I get impatient, annoyed or a bit frustrated but I just push that aside and try to deal with whatever is bothering me in a reasonable manner. And somehow that's a problem? She seems to think it is, and said it's not "normal" that we don't ever fight. We literally haven't had what I would consider a fight. There's been arguments where one or the other person was a bit pissed, but nothing where one of us storms out or yells at the other person. The only time I've ever raised my voice at her was when I was concentrating on doing something on a kitchen counter, she reached around me to open a cupboard to grab something, left it open, and I smashed my bare head on the corner of the door so hard I was bleeding. Naturally I was like "WHY THE FUCK DID YOU LEAVE THAT OPEN DIRECTLY OVER MY HEAD" but calmed down immediately once the pain had passed and apologized for yelling at her.
As far as the money issue goes, since we've been together she's mostly worked part time jobs while doing school. Between car payments, insurance, school tuition, books and other day to day things she can't afford to pay me rent, or share utilities. When she moved in the deal was going to be that she'd pay for groceries. That lasted approximately a month before she was flat broke. When her car got stolen two years ago, she ended up buying another car that was well outside what she can afford from the insurance settlement, so I stepped up and chipped in about half of the cost (about 7k). And then a year to 18 months ago when she was upset, it came out that she had maxed her credit cards and needed further help, so I got a secondary Visa, told her she could use that for whatever she felt necessary and also cut her a check to clear off her CC balance (about 6k). She's since gone back in the hole a few thousand. And trust me, she doesn't have a spending problem. She spends next to nothing on shit like clothes and the like, she's actually pretty frugal. The only exception to that is she spends too fucking much money on high end groceries at the farmer's market and bakery down the street (the bread is delicious, but $8 for a loaf that can maybe make half a dozen sandwiches?), but that's all going on my CC anyways and I don't particularly mind as she's a good cook. I've never sat down with her and looked at her budget, but I'm fairly confident that she's not doing anything stupid with her money. In any case, she's in to me for somewhere around 12-15k.
The thing is, I don't give a shit. That money is basically inconsequential to me. And I have never once said anything negative to her about it, or made her feel guilty about it. She said as much when we talked last week, that I've been great about it and she really appreciates the help. But that it makes her feel like she's totally dependent on me and that the relationship's balance is totally skewed because of the finances. She also said she didn't like not knowing what our financial situation even was, what we could afford, what kind of security we had, and so on. I explained that as far as I was concerned, what's mine is hers and we're a team, so I didn't really care that she didn't make much money or needed my help financially. That she does so many things for me that make my life better that it was more than a fair trade. I told her that she was welcome to know anything about my finances she wanted to know, that the only reason we'd never discussed it was that she'd never really expressed an interest or concern previously, and when our relationship started I was warned by a mutual friend not to throw money around as she isn't impressed by that kind of thing. So while I didn't avoid the subject, I never brought it up as she seemed content not knowing. I asked her what she wanted to know about my finances. She didn't really give an answer. So I gave her a general rundown of my present finances (I'M RICH BITCH) and roughly where I thought things were going. That didn't really seem to register in either direction, as far as I could tell.
She had started the entire conversation by saying "I need to pay you back for my car" before we went on to the deeper issues, and we circled back to that. I told her that if she wanted to start paying me back a few hundred dollars a month now that she had gotten a new position and should be making more money, that would be fine by me, but that I felt it better to pay down her CC first. She said she'd been thinking of getting another job to facilitate paying me back. I told her that if that's what she wanted to do, it was up to her, but that I felt it would be a mistake because she'd basically end up doing nothing but working or school and our relationship would further suffer. We left that open for the time being, but she did give me $900 a few days later to pay me back for some books and other stuff she'd put on my CC recently.
Also as part of that conversation when talking about incomes, she said that because I make/have a fair amount of money, her job is always going to "not matter." I told her that's crazy, that she didn't take her chosen career path (child and education psychology) because it was going to pay well or make her rich, and that if we do stay together for the long run our finances would allow her to choose the most fulfilling job she could find. She said that made her feel like her career was a joke or irrelevant. I told her that's absolutely not true, that if anything her career will be a lot more meaningful than mine, which mostly consists of slapping in plumbing in cookie cutter, suburban, shithole condo/apartment projects (with the occasional shiny, glass tower). That's honestly how I feel, I derive little satisfaction from my work/business other than the money, for better or worse. Again, that didn't really seem to make any difference to her.
We moved on to what seemed to be her main concern: that I say all the right things, and do all the right things, but that she doesn't feel like I truly take her seriously, don't consider her an equal partner, and don't have any expectations for her. The expectations thing kind of threw me, and I asked what she meant. She said that it felt like she didn't need to do anything to make me happy with her or our relationship, and asked what expectations I had for her. In all honesty, I was pretty stumped by that question, and still largely am. I told her I expect her to keep doing the things she's been doing around the house and to keep doing well at her education and establish herself in her career. She got frustrated and told me that those things aren't "real expectations". I said that I'd like to do more things together like going on trips, going to the mountains to ski/hike/camp/whatever, but that she basically refuses to do any of that stuff because she's too busy with work and school most of the time. The conservation moved on from there, but like I said, I'm still kind of stumped on that. I don't have any grand expectations of her, other than being happy being with me, wherever that takes us. I dunno, I'm not a "deep" kind of guy, that shit just isn't something I think about.
The topic of kids also came up when we were talking about where things are going long term. She's not eager to have kids right away and may never want them, but she was concerned that if she did decide to have them that I'd not want them, or not be involved enough, or consider them an inconvenience getting in the way of my life. I told her that from my perspective, I'm not particularly interested in having kids at this point, but that could well change down the road, and that if we were together and she wanted kids I'd be 100% invested in it. I couldn't really gauge what she thought of this.
I'm probably forgetting or omitting some shit, but this is getting pretty long and that's the majority of it. We ended the conversation saying that we were both going to give things some thought, but didn't really give a concrete time frame for when we'd revisit any of it. During the conversation I asked her several times if there was anything I could be doing differently and never really got any concrete answer, mostly she went back to the "expectation" thing along with how we weren't equal.
From my perspective, I feel like most or all of this shit resides with her. I'm happy with our relationship, and I'm happy with her. Like I said at the start, she's an awesome woman in virtually every respect. I could absolutely spend the rest of my life with her, but only if she's going to be happy with that. At this point it feels like for whatever reason her feelings for me are dissipating and instead of admitting that to herself she's making up excuses or reasons as to why our relationship isn't working. Also, she's the kind of person who feels a lot of guilt about things, for whatever reason. I'd relate a few anecdotes, but this post is long enough. And I think she's feeling a lot of guilt about needing financial help from me. That coupled with her lessening feelings for me is not helping things.
From my perspective, I'll be pretty upset if we break up, but on the other hand things just haven't been the same the past 6 months. It sucks that I've invested 3 years of my life in this relationship, and quite honestly this might well be my last stab at a relationship that leads to marriage, but if she's just going to be miserable then it's time to tear the band-aid off. I just have a feeling that she isn't going to end it herself, I don't think she has it in her. She'll just keep shutting me out more and more until I end it, and then when I do in her mind it'll validate her thinking that I never truly considered her an equal in the relationship or some shit.
Wut do?
Eomer
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Also, no, she hasn't cheated. Let's just head that one off at the pass. She doesn't have that in her make-up, her school is correspondence and entirely women, and her job is at a psychology and rehabilitation center that is 98% women. She also is never not home other than for work. It's just not a possibility, bros.
Noodleface
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I didn't read your whole wall of text yet but I had a girlfriend also break up with me because:
1) I don't get mad at her enough
I talked to another female about this and she agreed. Every healthy relationship had arguments and if we didn't have none then something was wrong.
WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT?
1) I don't get mad at her enough
I talked to another female about this and she agreed. Every healthy relationship had arguments and if we didn't have none then something was wrong.
WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT?
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Sounds like she just sort of needs a reality check, from your description you've been exactly the male figure you should be. The alternatives to make her job "matter" are:
1> She picks a better job
2> You quit your job and burn a lot of your money
Does she really prefer that you just have let her sink rather than help? She is the one who picked and executed her career, not you. If she really just wants someone less successful so that she can feel like her job matters, thats on her. Nothing you can do about it.
I get a little bit of this with my wife too, because she feels like her job doesn't matter, but she's ok with it because she's not career-oriented anyway. But, she is very adamant that she's not dependent on me, doesn't want to be a housewife.
I don't know that there's anything you can really do here, other than tell her that she needs to take some time and think about this, because she's messing up a good thing. There's really no rational way to discuss "you do too much for me and I want to matter" as a relationship point. Thats just absurd.
Khane
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Eomer
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She was doing a bit of therapy for anxiety last year, but just talking and some sort of treatment where they blasted her with bright lights or some shit. Never any drugs. I don't think she's legitimately depressed or really has any other mental health issue.
Whats really odd is almost that bullet point list is extraordinarily similar to when a girl broke up with me maybe 8 years ago or so. I chalked it up to her being 18 and just trying to give me bullshit excuses to break up with me. The whole "You don't get mad at me" thing was always the one that struck the hardest with me. She inferred it was because I don't really care about her enough to get mad. I decided that is completely her problem and possibly it is because she came from a broken home so couples arguing was simply second nature to her. I stopped really digging too hard and stopped thinking about it once I chalked it up to the "bullshit excuse" column but maybe there is some truth to it.
I also got the "You say the right things and that makes me think you're dishonest" thing as well. I stopped and thought and determined she was actually correct on that part. I did constantly say what I thought she wanted to hear because I was too afraid of losing her if I said what I truly thought. I did grow from that criticism because after that I started being completely honest instead of putting on a facade for the person I was dating.
But honestly that entire conversation reeks to me that she's already broken up with you in her mind. Sorry to say bro.
I also got the "You say the right things and that makes me think you're dishonest" thing as well. I stopped and thought and determined she was actually correct on that part. I did constantly say what I thought she wanted to hear because I was too afraid of losing her if I said what I truly thought. I did grow from that criticism because after that I started being completely honest instead of putting on a facade for the person I was dating.
But honestly that entire conversation reeks to me that she's already broken up with you in her mind. Sorry to say bro.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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Many women do this, some are just better at realizing what it actually is and not saying something as stupid as "you don't get mad at me enough". You've come to the correct conclusion on your own. If you aren't arguing you don't care. That crazy broad I dated for a hot minute who accused my friend of sexually assaulting her was doing the same thing.
The problem for me and many other men is the women who tend to overreact like this are also the women I have the most fun with. They light my fire. And the women who are more grounded and reasonable tend to bore me to tears. So I guess I'm not much different other than the fact that I don't actually want the drama and won't put up with it. I just want all the other fun parts of the personality and sex life that come attached to a woman who loves drama.
chthonic-anemos
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Get drunk and tell her how stupid she sounds, make her cry. Give her this much fantasized argument that she desires. Dump her after the make-up sex and live happily ever after.
I'm not talking about troll super depression. If you can finesse it I would just have her try talking to someone. Instead of antidepressants they're more like anti-unhappy-for-random-bullshit-of-today.
Khane
Got something right about marriage
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I'm also going to play a bit of Devil's advocate here for a second. So when you met this girl Eomer you were aware that she is not impressed by flashing cash. Thats fine. It is actually a respectable personality trait. So you said you avoided doing it. However reading your post at least half -- probably more like 3/4 -- focuses completely on money. So you say you don't give a shit about the money. Maybe you actually feel that way. But maybe you unknowingly talk about money. So she knows that money is important to you. Again thats fine. But how that you are paying for things for her she sees you adding this numbers up in your head. Even here you managed to produce the figures you've loaned her off the top of your head. She's picking up on that. She sees you and knows that you've got her tab calculated up in your head. And maybe you don't actually care. But she's been with you long enough to know you put a value on finances and she's nothing more than a leech on one of your prized assets. It could make her feel extremely uncomfortable even if you're doing it for noble reasons.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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If she feels that way its not because of anything he's said here. He's said over and over he makes it clear he doesn't care. Who wouldn't know the value of things he's done? I think its the fact that he doesn't care that makes her feel like she's insignificant... but then if he put the screws to her financially, she'd say he doesn't help. It's a lose/lose with this rationale.
Because some people put more emphasis on actions instead of words. He says he doesn't care about the money but then spends half the post talking about the money.