nerd rage? because i pointed out how terrible the writing was? I gave it 8/10 and said it was one of the best comic shows. AND that has nothing to do with the "writing", which was just bad. it has bad writing with stupid plot holes because plot needed it and writers couldn't figure out a better way to achieve the same result. Story was good, setting, mood, pacing, all great. really nice change of pace from typical comic book shows, gritty noir feel. good actors and acting, decent dialogue. That's why I said it was good. shitty plot holes because bad writers = bad writing.
I would of rather had more filler episodes than "oh shit we're only 3 episodes in and can totally end this arc right now, but we have 10 more episodes to go so better have something retarded happen because emo chicks are dumb hur hur hur"
perfect decisions? nope. who expects perfect decisions? Any one of those adjectives lets you get away with not making perfect decisions every time. Mid 20s, PTSD, Emo, Chick, pick one and it excuses not making "perfect" decisions, pick more than one and it excuses making "perfect" decisions ever. But literally retarded decisions that an 8 year old with down syndrome would avoid like the plague, every. single. decision. she. makes? what the fuck. Just once it would be nice if she wasn't full retard.
Most of the glaring plotholes could of been avoided if she had no foreknowledge about kilgrave. If this was her first encounter with him. The story would of been worse (you lose out on all the revenge, unrequited love, death of luke cage's wife, etc), but the writing would of been better. The audience is introduced to kilgrave slowly and over the first few episodes you learn what his powers/limitations are and it's a good introduction but then you realize she's known. she's always known. The writer's forgot that she knew and left in the holes.
Inserting a single scene could of fixed all of those and kept the story. As she's walking away after killing luke's wife and he's losing his control over her, he could of just yelled out sarcastically "well then forget me then, huh?" and had that command "take". Then she learns through all the flashbacks and alcoholism coping with the PTSD from all the shit that she did that she was being mind controlled and it wasn't her fault all the evil bad shit she had just done for months/years/however long she was his puppet. she learns and remembers what happened and why just as the audience learns and suddenly there are no plot holes. other than the obvious ones with her power level fluctuations due to bad writing.
Half your post is complaining that Jessica allowed Hope to kill her parents. Do you know what kind of ridiculous foresight it would have taken Jessica to know that was his elaborate plan the whole time? She had no idea he had that obsession with her at that point or to even suspect Kilgrave was interested in Jessic at all. All she knew was that Kilgrave told Hope to stay where she was on the bed. Losing your shit over that is pretty ridiculous.
Your other issue is way more understandable and I was thinking the same thing. While that could be considered poor writing I was able to look at it as a stupid emotional chick doing stupid emotional chick things. Definitely don't fault anyone for having issues with it as it was definitely stupid.
I'd also give it an 8/10 or maybe a 9/10 just because of how awesome Kilgrave was. He really made the show.
i'm not blaming her, i'm saying she is still responsible to some degree for their deaths, should she be given life in prison or the chair? no, but you cant just wave that shit away because she was being mind controlled. this is probably going to play out in cap2 civil war, is bucky responsible for all those deaths because he was mind controlled or should he get a complete pass?
I honestly think she should get a free pass since she wasn't in any way in control over herself. It's not the same as someone who has a few drinks and then does something stupid. In that situation you're at least partially responsible. This is completely different.
It's really not even close. Honestly, what would punishing someone for that even accomplish?
Jessica Jones is directly responsible for the death of Hopes parents. You don't know this going in to the show and only learn it later, which is one of the main plot holes i've been posting about.
At the start of the series for non-comic book reading audience you don't know shit, and wow crazy shit happens and it's intriguing so you continue to watch and learn as the series progresses.
At the start of the series Jessica Jones knows:
a) Exactly who kilgrave is and with 100% certainty that kilgrave is responsible for the disappearance of Hope. The first episode is her learning that he survived the bus accident, the details of said accident we the audience learn over the course of the series.
b) That kilgrave has mind controlled Hope
c) That kilgrave's mind control has a 12 hour duration
d) That kilgrave can and does use "contingency commands" such as if/when x, do Y. "if I don't come back in 2 hours, kill yourself", etc
e) That hope's only been away from kilgrave for 6 hours and that she is still under his control for the next 6 hours
edit: to counter your other point
f) Kilgrave is completely selfish sociopath with total disregard for anyone other than himself. He views people as playthings and derives pleasure from using them, they are all ant's to him to dispose of/kill when they no longer amuse him. Contrary to your point, She doesn't learn that he's "in love" with her and doesn't start to act humanely towards his victims until he's trying to prove himself to her. She knew or assumed that hope was a disposable plaything that he had grown bored of and that she was still a danger to herself or to others for atleast 6 more hours and yet still did nothing.
point D you don't learn that she had foreknowledge of this for certain until way later in the series (by which time you've probably rationalized her letting hope go as "she didn't know" and don't think much about, but astute observers will realize she already knows this when she is talking about the surgical anesthetics and how it affects his powers vs him sleeping ("he sleeps, but people still follow his commands")
knowing all this she let's her parents take her home instead of tying her up/giving her sleeping pills/whatever until the affects of the mind control wear off and then giving her back to her parents. You may try to rationalize "well maybe she wasn't thinking about it at the time" except that she specifically asks for the time duration of how long kilgrave has been away from her. At the time the audience doesn't know what jessica knows so the audience assumes it's because jessica wants to know how much lead time kilgrave has "running away" lol but jessica knows exactly why this is relevant and does it anyway.
Jessica is directly responsible for basically every death on the show. Not only the parents but also the futile attempts to capture kilgrave or prove innocence or merely ruining Nuke's attempt to assassinate kilgrave.
You confuse this with foresight? no, she knew. you learn over the course of the series that she already knew this. Some people have problems differentiating what they the audience knows (and when they learned it) vs what a character in a story knows and when they knew it.
You could argue that, given everything she knew, she didn't piece it together that she should have a method of subduing mind controlled puppets. That's forgivable as she's ptsd/female/dumb/emo/whatever. When every other character immediately realizes this upon initial contact with kilgrave and she still doesn't piece it together, ok maybe she's really retarded. When Lester freeman hands her a brand new roll of duct tape and tells her to use it, and surprise surprise it saves the day, her not continuing to use it is a plot hole. He already saved her the trip to home depot, she has a brand new roll of duct tape. You know it saves lives! use it you stupid whore.
I honestly think she should get a free pass since she wasn't in any way in control over herself. It's not the same as someone who has a few drinks and then does something stupid. In that situation you're at least partially responsible. This is completely different.
It's really not even close. Honestly, what would punishing someone for that even accomplish?
i dunno what would be a fitting punishment, if any. just saying that she may be innocent of the crime, but she is also guilty of it. i know you are gonna shit on me for saying that, but i cant really give her, Bucky or Thea a pat on the back and send them on their way like nothing happened. let me put it this way, if Hope and Malcom were walking along the street and a piano fell out of a window and crushed both of them to death, neither deserved to die so tragically, but i would only feel bad for Malcom.
Oh and Sylas, you are barking up the wrong tree. Jessica may have known Hope was still under the influence of killgrave, but there are 2 things you have overlooked.
1, Killgrave was out there somewhere, possibly nearby ready to kill Hope. jessica told her parents, "get out of town right now, drive and dont stop til you get to Nebraska." she thought Hope was in imminent danger
2, Jessica only knew about Hope's order that she not move from the bed, she did not know that Kilgrave gave Hope a second order to kill her own parents. how could she know such a thing? later this bites her in the ass a second time because Luke Cage was also given two orders. blow himself up and make sure jessica sees it AND report back to kilgrave about their movements.
here let me try and explain the difference between audience knowledge and character knowledge another way:
Imagine kilgrave escaped scott free at the end of the season. Then season 2 he returns. Now knowing everything we know about kilgrave, would you forgive the show if they still had jessica making all the same stupid mistakes she did in season 1? letting people who are mind controlled roam around freely? trying to capture kilgrave and take him to court? Not properly subduing mind controlled puppets?
Of course you wouldn't. it would be terrible writing. Because you the audience knows what kilgrave can do and the limitations of the powers, and you know that Jessica knows these things too. Him doing the same shit in season 2 as he did in season 1 and her letting him and making the same stupid decisions and mistakes would be unforgivable.
So what's the difference? There isn't one.
The thing is, Jessica already knew. She already had a prequel season where she first meets the guy and experiences all this shit. she already learned all the things you learn about him in season 1 before season 1 starts. The only new thing she learns about kilgrave in season 1 is that his powers can be deactivated with surgical anesthetic, and she fucks that up too, choosing to save 1 cop instead of taking kilgrave down (which results in him running amok for 9 more episodes killing scores more people)
RT is really only useful for the extreme outliers. If it's 96 percent it's probably good, if it's at 12 percent it's going to be bad. That sort of thing.
Jessica Jones is directly responsible for the death of Hopes parents. You don't know this going in to the show and only learn it later, which is one of the main plot holes i've been posting about.
At the start of the series for non-comic book reading audience you don't know shit, and wow crazy shit happens and it's intriguing so you continue to watch and learn as the series progresses.
At the start of the series Jessica Jones knows:
a) Exactly who kilgrave is and with 100% certainty that kilgrave is responsible for the disappearance of Hope. The first episode is her learning that he survived the bus accident, the details of said accident we the audience learn over the course of the series.
b) That kilgrave has mind controlled Hope
c) That kilgrave's mind control has a 12 hour duration
d) That kilgrave can and does use "contingency commands" such as if/when x, do Y. "if I don't come back in 2 hours, kill yourself", etc
e) That hope's only been away from kilgrave for 6 hours and that she is still under his control for the next 6 hours
edit: to counter your other point
f) Kilgrave is completely selfish sociopath with total disregard for anyone other than himself. He views people as playthings and derives pleasure from using them, they are all ant's to him to dispose of/kill when they no longer amuse him. Contrary to your point, She doesn't learn that he's "in love" with her and doesn't start to act humanely towards his victims until he's trying to prove himself to her. She knew or assumed that hope was a disposable plaything that he had grown bored of and that she was still a danger to herself or to others for atleast 6 more hours and yet still did nothing.
point D you don't learn that she had foreknowledge of this for certain until way later in the series (by which time you've probably rationalized her letting hope go as "she didn't know" and don't think much about, but astute observers will realize she already knows this when she is talking about the surgical anesthetics and how it affects his powers vs him sleeping ("he sleeps, but people still follow his commands")
knowing all this she let's her parents take her home instead of tying her up/giving her sleeping pills/whatever until the affects of the mind control wear off and then giving her back to her parents. You may try to rationalize "well maybe she wasn't thinking about it at the time" except that she specifically asks for the time duration of how long kilgrave has been away from her. At the time the audience doesn't know what jessica knows so the audience assumes it's because jessica wants to know how much lead time kilgrave has "running away" lol but jessica knows exactly why this is relevant and does it anyway.
Jessica is directly responsible for basically every death on the show. Not only the parents but also the futile attempts to capture kilgrave or prove innocence or merely ruining Nuke's attempt to assassinate kilgrave.
You confuse this with foresight? no, she knew. you learn over the course of the series that she already knew this. Some people have problems differentiating what they the audience knows (and when they learned it) vs what a character in a story knows and when they knew it.
You could argue that, given everything she knew, she didn't piece it together that she should have a method of subduing mind controlled puppets. That's forgivable as she's ptsd/female/dumb/emo/whatever. When every other character immediately realizes this upon initial contact with kilgrave and she still doesn't piece it together, ok maybe she's really retarded. When Lester freeman hands her a brand new roll of duct tape and tells her to use it, and surprise surprise it saves the day, her not continuing to use it is a plot hole. He already saved her the trip to home depot, she has a brand new roll of duct tape. You know it saves lives! use it you stupid whore.
There's no reason to suspect Kilgrave had "contingency commands" at that point for Jessica. Nobody have ever disobeyed him before why would he even need them? They only becomes necessary for Jessica because she can't be controlled. She doesn't learn that until late in the season. She also doesn't find out about his obsession with her until after Hope kills her parents.
Also, doesn't she only find out about hypnotics/anesthesia affecting his power until she meets the Dr. who did the kidney transplant afterwards as well.
There's no reason to suspect Kilgrave had "contingency commands" at that point for Jessica. Nobody have ever disobeyed him before why would he even need them? They only becomes necessary for Jessica because she can't be controlled. She doesn't learn that until late in the season. She also doesn't find out about his obsession with her until after Hope kills her parents.
Also, doesn't she only find out about hypnotics/anesthesia affecting his power until she meets the Dr. who did the kidney transplant afterwards as well.
she knew about the 12 hour timer. She knew about contingency plans for sure. while "kill your parents, is an odd command, and not likely one she could have foreseen. "kill yourself" IS. And she made no attempt to disarm, or tie her up. Hope harming HERSELF was even more likely.
her being really dumb also comes up with Kilgraves parents. They have the vids of the boy with mind control. but "can't prove Kilgrave was that boy". so they have vids proving mind control is real. even if they can't prove kilgrave is the one doing it. that alone would be a huge for hopes defense. But then she gets his parents, the ones IN the video. Their testimony, paperwork, and/or blood tests would prove both real, and the connections to Kilgrave. They do not need to go into his room at all. and of course, they go in.. without any restraints or anything...
Going to be honest here, I'm not a Marvel guy and I had only heard of Jessica Jones from the old Marvel Max comics, so my investment in the character is next to nothing. Halfway through so far and I enjoyed Daredevil quite a bit more but maybe that's because I read the Miller arc back in the day.
What exactly is her back story powerwise? I'm seeing above average strength and that's about it. Was she always a tortured PI? I'm going to finish it up over the weekend but so far DD much better.
I think it's clear that they wanted this to be a story about her and the Purple Man, start to finish. Honestly, I was thinking it was going to end with a Jewel/Power Man/Daredevil team up at the end. But it would have diminished her.
That entire list is retarded, for one its missing daredevil second Shield and Supergirl above Flash? Daredevil is tied with supergirl at 75 and barely above shield, wtf is that? Jessica Jones is at 81. How does the scoring even go, Flash only has 27 reviews from critics and is that counting the full season ? Being able to review a show based on 1 episode is an extremely flawed system
That entire list is retarded, for one its missing daredevil second Shield and Supergirl above Flash? Daredevil is tied with supergirl at 75 and barely above shield, wtf is that? Jessica Jones is at 81. How does the scoring even go, Flash on has 27 reviews from critics and is that counting the full season ? Being able to review a show based on 1 episode is an extremely flawed system
There's no reason to suspect Kilgrave had "contingency commands" at that point for Jessica. Nobody have ever disobeyed him before why would he even need them? They only becomes necessary for Jessica because she can't be controlled. She doesn't learn that until late in the season. She also doesn't find out about his obsession with her until after Hope kills her parents.
Also, doesn't she only find out about hypnotics/anesthesia affecting his power until she meets the Dr. who did the kidney transplant afterwards as well.
there's no reasonfor the audienceto suspect kilgrave had "contingency commands" but Jessica knows for certain that he does before the show starts. You still don't get it. It has nothing to do with people disobeying him. A command as simple as "bring me my breakfastwhenyou are done cooking it" is a contingency command. any if/whenXdoYis a contingency command. They have nothing to do with jessica, no commands do because she became immune to his powers. As I said and caliane reiterated, She knew hope was a danger to herself (probably) or to others and she let her go because #reasons is a plot hole. it's bad writing.
I already pointed out that the onlynewthing that jessica learns about his powers after episode 1 starts is about the anesthesia so not sure if you realize you are agreeing with me, but thanks.
Look I don't know why you think i'm condemning the show here or anything, I already said it was good. Some people, when listing out the reasons it was good said "it's got good writing". Those people are idiots, the writing is terrible.
I'll choose a good story with bad writing/plot holes over a boring story that's internally consistent without any plotholes any day. but story is not the same as writing. You can "over" write a good story eliminating all the plot holes to the point that the story suffers and becomes boring. That's the tradeoff you have to make when you have a bad writing team, they can't accomplish both. The rare diamond in the rough is a show with good story and good writing, but look they can't all be winners, they can't all be The Wire. Most shows have to make this trade off. It's fine. The show is still good. but writing isn't one of the reasons for it.
There's dozens of noticable plotholes in the series that could have easily been remedied or avoided if a little less cocaine was being consumed during the storyboarding process, that's all i'm saying.
"This story board has her attacked by rando's/therapy group/crazy twin chick from down the hall. The next storyboard has her waking up late to go pick up hope from jail. how do we connect these dots?"
"well she does have that anesthetic in her pocket at all times. we have half a dozen scenes of her conveniently pulling out the needle while preparing to fight kilgrave. maybe we could have her handling the needle while plotting about how to get to him, there's a knock at the door, she palms the needle then the scuffle ensues and a) she accidentally pricks her self/falls on it somehow/gets knocked out of her hand and crazy twin stabs her with it. idk something along those lines"
"You the intern right? what's your name? Bob? Bob you are fired"
"but.."
"Ok let's have crazy twin hit her with a 2x4 and knock her out cold for 12 hours. We'll even have her do that trope where she tries to pick herself up then collapses with the audible "ugh" passout sound"
"but, she gets hit by a fucking bus 2 episodes later and shakes that shit off, it doesn't make sense. I mean the anesthetic is a reasonable method to knock her out for the 12 hours needed without breaking any continuity?"
"Didn't I just fire you? 2x4 it is, make it so"
The rare diamond in the rough is a show with good story and good writing, but look they can't all be winners, they can't all be The Wire. Most shows have to make this trade off. It's fine. The show is still good. but writing isn't one of the reasons for it.
the critics all didnt watch the full season, one only watched the first 7. Also all the reviews on the flash are based on the Pilot, not the full seasom which is more retarded than RT or IMDB
there's no reasonfor the audienceto suspect kilgrave had "contingency commands" but Jessica knows for certain that he does before the show starts. You still don't get it. It has nothing to do with people disobeying him. A command as simple as "bring me my breakfastwhenyou are done cooking it" is a contingency command. any if/whenXdoYis a contingency command. They have nothing to do with jessica, no commands do because she became immune to his powers. As I said and caliane reiterated, She knew hope was a danger to herself (probably) or to others and she let her go because #reasons is a plot hole. it's bad writing.
I already pointed out that the onlynewthing that jessica learns about his powers after episode 1 starts is about the anesthesia so not sure if you realize you are agreeing with me, but thanks.
Look I don't know why you think i'm condemning the show here or anything, I already said it was good. Some people, when listing out the reasons it was good said "it's got good writing". Those people are idiots, the writing is terrible.
I'll choose a good story with bad writing/plot holes over a boring story that's internal consistent without any plotholes any day. but story is not the same as writing. You can "over" write a good story eliminating all the plot holes to the point that the story suffers and becomes boring. That's the tradeoff you have to make when you have a bad writing team, they can't accomplish both. The rare diamond in the rough is a show with good story and good writing, but look they can't all be winners, they can't all be The Wire. Most shows have to make this trade off. It's fine. The show is still good. but writing isn't one of the reasons for it.
There's dozens of noticable plotholes in the series that could have easily been remedied or avoided if a little less cocaine was being consumed during the storyboarding process, that's all i'm saying.
"This story board has her attacked by rando's/therapy group/crazy twin chick from down the hall. The next storyboard has her waking up late to go pick up hope from jail. how do we connect these dots?"
"well she does conveniently have that anesthetic in her pocket at all times. we have half a dozen scenes of her conveniently pulling out the needle while preparing to fight kilgrave. maybe we could have her handling the needle while plotting about how to get to him, there's a knock at the door, she palms the needle then the scuffle ensues and a) she accidentally pricks her self/falls on it somehow/gets knocked out of her hand and crazy twin stabs her with it. idk something along those lines"
"You the intern right? what's your name? Bob? Bob you are fired"
"but.."
"Ok let's have crazy twin hit her with a 2x4 and knock her out cold for 12 hours. We'll even have her do that trope where she tries to pick herself up then collapses with the audible "ugh" passout sound"
"but, she gets hit by a fucking bus 2 episodes later and shakes that shit off, it doesn't make sense. I mean the anesthetic is a reasonable method to knock her out for the 12 hours needed without breaking any continuity?"
"Didn't I just fire you? 2x4 it is, make it so"
sylas, you should have read my above post. kilgrave had a contingency plan yes, but jessica didnt know about it. jessica was more worried that hope was in imminent danger, so as soon as she rescued her she had the parents come and get her and told them to leave town right this second and bring her back home. she didnt have 12 hours to wait out her effects, she gambled that the only thing kilgrave told her to do was sit in the bed. i mean if Hope's order was to kill her parents wouldnt she have done so soon as they showed up? it wouldnt be this smirky sly action as the elevator doors closed.
also fuck the spoilers, the show has been out a while.
