Monsters and Memories (Project_N) - Old School Indie MMO

Kharzette

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So I just started looking into this, and according to the wiki the spells on the old EQ classes are basically identical. Like down to the level you get them. Is this accurate and intentional? Or are the old EQ spells/abilities just placeholders during development?

Was kinda stoked to play a new MMO in the vein of early EQ… but this is looking a bit on the nose…
I plays different. The classes feel a bit more capable at low levels, probably because dungeon action starts at 3 or 4 if you want.

I grouped with a friend this time and we took it slow and did quests and stuff. Monk for me and halfling druid.

Friend has only ever played the final fantasy mmo, so there were many questions. The concept of clicking and picking up an item was a difficult one to get across but we managed :)
 
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Nirgon

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Do what you can to support this with finding any issues or any good feedback my friends. It's one of those things where it's nearly once in a life time that your hopes for something will be answered.

The "MMO" "options" (quoted separately because they really aren't true MMOs nor is there much of a choice) out there aren't doing it for any of us, which is mostly what prompted this to exist.

After the last play test and seeing their additions and refinements, I have to say this is frankly a mind blowing grass roots effort and spreading the good word about it is something we should all be doing. Not just for the team producing it but the entire community and hobby. Doubling their numbers on the play tests and helping show real interest in this as individuals I think will be supremely impactful. We all have old guild mates and friends to tell about this, and need to. My top 3 hopes right now are for these guys to find the right backing (not people stealing creative control in any aspect at all, so important!) where they can do it full time because what they've done in their spare time is just beyond impressive. It makes me wonder what is truly possible here with their talent and drive.


Really, what they've done not just on their own dime but also with their free time and energy after their high tech/demand day jobs has blown my mind.

Get your friends on the next play test, get the word out!
 
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Siliconemelons

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I wonder on a technical side, what are they changing to increase performance?

For me, the fps is playable, i am on a m3 Mac so i am sure anything that has a “real” 3d card will do quite better.

But the client server lag now is the thing that while playable, is still the “this ain’t a real game” thing.. and i know this is a pre pre pre alpha beta delta force comb level. I get that… just saying.

I think once they get the “netcode” or whatever done they will tackle the UI.

The music and art direction are top tier imo
 

Nirgon

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I wonder on a technical side, what are they changing to increase performance?

For me, the fps is playable, i am on a m3 Mac so i am sure anything that has a “real” 3d card will do quite better.

But the client server lag now is the thing that while playable, is still the “this ain’t a real game” thing.. and i know this is a pre pre pre alpha beta delta force comb level. I get that… just saying.

I think once they get the “netcode” or whatever done they will tackle the UI.

The music and art direction are top tier imo

I remember talking to someone working on optimization of one of the emulators. For him there was some entity list (players, NPCs, etc) and how that entity list was notified of events was the issue. It would take 3 seconds of delay in a high population zone.

He solved it by going the route of some kind of observer pattern that handled "need to be updated or not" which involved additional complexity past the obvious of "how" the update was done but saving on "when they need to receive said update". Frankly it made a load of sense but figuring how how to go about that was a real hurdle that said dev succeeded in accomplishing. We were just talking about it while he did it, I wasn't looking at actual code.

Usually it's the right person simply having a solid amount of time to hack away at it till the Eureka moment.

They've made major leaps and bounds since the stress test, so they've got a Mr Eureka in their roster. To the point of my previous post, all of us being there and sticking with it helped generate that they needed to really make things happen quickly.
 
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Siliconemelons

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I know nothing about unity or programming in actuality, I get concepts etc. So keep that in mind.

Is there an "MMO stuff" for unity? EQ, WOW... asherons call never had the lag ... or delay in NPC and PC positioning action etc. lag when not in an /actual/ ISP lag situation. Now, all those games where all "made" systems - they were not built off of a thing /like Unity/ -so going by what you said, it seems that ... no there is not really a mature Unity "block" set of stuff for a MMO- and they are needing to refine and build up the system that makes it "MM" of the MMO type thing.

I am not dogging on them in the least. I am very happy to be able to play this game when I can, I will gladly support it once that option happens in a year or so.

My little halfling bard has been fun, I like how I dont have to twist "songs" to go from my buff, to my damage- the damage is more of a traditional spell I can cast while still singing - so I assume as I get more and more- there will be twisting of songs, while also inserting the "spells" along with my elite halfling sword skills.

Edit: heck if there are not Unity "building blocks" for an MMO- and these guys essentially "make" that- I am sure that is also something they can sell...or leverage... if they wanted to.
 

Nirgon

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Honestly I think they can't elaborate on their specific inner workings but based on hailing NPCs and their responses when the zones are heavily populated, that's my best guess. They made a massive improvement and prob one lil Eureka away from something mega smooth in 80+ player zones.

Dealing with threading, asynchronous processes and all that, it gets really and sometimes surprisingly hairy (wth am I even gonna do levels of overwhelming) orchestrating things and that's just as a 13 year "full stack" guy. For a huge persistent world trying to hang on to brittle connections, I can't even imagine. But as the same time I have zero doubt with enough coffee time one of them will iron out that last little bit of it which is all that's leftover since last run which was them intentionally overpopulating areas. Gotta underscore again how much of an improvement they've made since the stress test to something extremely complex.
 
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Siliconemelons

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Oh from the one 2 times ago to this one, it was WAY WAY BETTER- if that same jump happens for the next time, it would be effectively "gone" / "solved" so- there is that :)

I wish I could program and code, I would help, that is not my talent - I am a system administrator, I use the tools and things, not make the tools and things.

...and... I can speak WITH THE PEOPLE! heh
 
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Kharzette

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Looked to me like they were mesh combining corpses. /hidecorpse all would only boost me a couple frames. In past tests that would double my fps near a newb carpeted area. Client performance is almost always down to number of draw calls.

For unity hitching, it is keeping allocations very low or using object pools. Garbage collection is almost always the cause of hitches.
 
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Nirgon

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Oh from the one 2 times ago to this one, it was WAY WAY BETTER- if that same jump happens for the next time, it would be effectively "gone" / "solved" so- there is that :)

I wish I could program and code, I would help, that is not my talent - I am a system administrator, I use the tools and things, not make the tools and things.

...and... I can speak WITH THE PEOPLE! heh

I mean I can code and all but this is a very different beast. Coding would be the right first step sure but lots of other game dev specifics to solve the big stuff, really a lot different than the usual things.

Kharzette I'm sure has way more perspective.


Edit: oh nvm, speak of the devil above me lol. Kharzette Kharzette now that you're here, in technical but still relatively layman's terms, how do u even go about tackling memory leaks on a server handling persistent and randomly dropped connections doing who knows what like this game probably is. I feel like you have to do a regularly scheduled shutdown and reboot which hopefully coincides with patch days, and keeping it stable for that amount of time is the real trick?
 

Kharzette

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Well the server side is probably not unity at all but some custom thing.

I haven't done a whole lot of that, so the average web coder probably knows more than I do.
 

Control

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I know nothing about unity or programming in actuality, I get concepts etc. So keep that in mind.

Is there an "MMO stuff" for unity? EQ, WOW... asherons call never had the lag ... or delay in NPC and PC positioning action etc. lag when not in an /actual/ ISP lag situation. Now, all those games where all "made" systems - they were not built off of a thing /like Unity/ -so going by what you said, it seems that ... no there is not really a mature Unity "block" set of stuff for a MMO- and they are needing to refine and build up the system that makes it "MM" of the MMO type thing.

I am not dogging on them in the least. I am very happy to be able to play this game when I can, I will gladly support it once that option happens in a year or so.

My little halfling bard has been fun, I like how I dont have to twist "songs" to go from my buff, to my damage- the damage is more of a traditional spell I can cast while still singing - so I assume as I get more and more- there will be twisting of songs, while also inserting the "spells" along with my elite halfling sword skills.

Edit: heck if there are not Unity "building blocks" for an MMO- and these guys essentially "make" that- I am sure that is also something they can sell...or leverage... if they wanted to.
There are a couple of MMO Unity assets, but any real team would still need capable network programmers to modify them if they wanted to do any customizations and run at any sort of scale. They might be able to get you far enough to be able to afford the programmers though, depending on how happy they were to work within the asset's framework. If they started with reasonable programmers though, they're probably using one of the network packages and rolling their own MMO logic.

On the lag thing, there's probably a thousand things that could cause it. You likely never played any production MMO as early in development as this is, so I would expect that they just have a ton of problems to sort out before we can expect a production level of service. And it may not even be that things are wrong, just not optimized yet. They may have tons of logging added for the stress tests which are bogging things down, for example. And they're probably running on as little hardware as humanly possible to keep the costs down.
 
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GuardianX

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-- Crafting

Crafting stations should be per-character, always. No one should be able to sneak in on a crafting station while I'm using it and take my materials. I was able to do this, tucked between people crafting while someone was using the crafting station, removed other players things, did my combine, and replaced their items, because I'm not an asshole. A shifty person could sit inside the forge and wait for people and just take things as people craft.

Crafting is 100% in its infancy so talking much about the systems seems a bit preemptive.

-- QoL

- I'm still gunna hammer the main city size, that place is so big they are duplicating things with crafting. I got to level 8 on my shaman and had SoW and thought, "this is how fast you should travel this place naturally." reduce the size of the city by the percentage of level 8 SoW. I feel like this is one of those things I'll just have to conceptually live with because I doubt they will scale the city DOWN...I expect it to grow actually LOL...

- Group Buffs: I liked the idea of an "All in one" stat buff for Shaman but it would be nice if it was group wide, heck increase the mana consumption to compensate for that. This is a pretty minor complaint and is more a "It would be nice if...", plus it will likely be a thing in later levels to get group versions of spells.

- Chat windows; Main chat should only be important things for my character, not something ALL spam goes to, grouping with a bard for an hour basically made me try everything under the sun to make their chat only appear in another window. Preferably it should be laid out like this; Main Chat (XP events, skill-ups, chat, my death), Hits me (All detrimental effects that hit the player), My hits (all detrimental effects the player causes), Others (Actions and Effects that other people cause to other things). This shouldn't be set in stone, I mean people can change it but for a "New Player Experience" having a person have their chat FILL with spam every few seconds is intense.

- All "Options" with numerical values should be accompanied by either a text box to alter that value or a guidance to do more complicated changes like "Hold Shift and Right click" in order to type in exact numbers especially when you have decimal level changes.

- "MUD" commands: These things should be tied to the "look" feature that is typically introduced to players in their early class quests, especially if you are going to be as stringent as to require "/take moss" vs "/take Moondew Moss. Make it so using "Look" causes your character to observe the exact usage names required to interact with using the other "MUD" commands. For example: Player uses LOOK (You see a large amount of, what looks to be, Moondew Moss clinging to the side of the well, this could be what you were told to look for by Soandso)

---

Non-issues

Merchants offering different prices: 100% will cause friction in the game for a long time. Not an issue for players of the game that like bargain hunting and know the systems. While it is annoying in the start, it pans out to be a "Character" system as you get used to it.

Quests: Players not knowing what goes where lasts only a little while. Eventually "Secret" quests are all found and those hidden gems are farmed to oblivion. I think this is a double-edged sword though, devs want the experience to be fun and unique but nothing stops websites from existing and data-mining. Understanding and accepting that this WILL be the case in this game is a good place to build from, as a dev. You won't ever keep the mystery forever.

---

Some cool things

I didn't know that HoT spells stacked with other hot's. Had another SHM in my group and both of us put the HoT we had on a person and they we getting double ticks, a pretty nice feature, makes healing classes useful even when they are the same class in a group.

The darkness in places leads to some very cool atmospheres, add in "Survival" as a trait and you are able to place fires and torches around a dungeon. I'm a sucker for interaction with a world so having this is pretty cool. Pop down your fire and then put down a couple torches if you need so that people can avoid hazards. I think making the 1st dungeon a bit MORE environmentally dangerous would be interesting.

The paths to level are pretty varied, but people all go the same route it felt like. I loved that the Shaded Dunes did the dust-storm, hopefully that system will push people to leave that zone and rotate around a bit. I wonder if the other zones have similar type things. Gets the imagination rolling.
 
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Siliconemelons

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There are a couple of MMO Unity assets, but any real team would still need capable network programmers to modify them if they wanted to do any customizations and run at any sort of scale. They might be able to get you far enough to be able to afford the programmers though, depending on how happy they were to work within the asset's framework. If they started with reasonable programmers though, they're probably using one of the network packages and rolling their own MMO logic.

On the lag thing, there's probably a thousand things that could cause it. You likely never played any production MMO as early in development as this is, so I would expect that they just have a ton of problems to sort out before we can expect a production level of service. And it may not even be that things are wrong, just not optimized yet. They may have tons of logging added for the stress tests which are bogging things down, for example. And they're probably running on as little hardware as humanly possible to keep the costs down.

Totally get it, i am happy with the game and log in whenever i can.

Only mmo i did beta was eq OA on the ps2 heh

Love this project and will do whatever small bit i can.
 
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