Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

BrotherWu said:
More or less the same techniques we all use. I haven't spent a lot of time paying attention to specific troop types; I just go for balance when upgrading with probably 40% cav. I think lords should do a better job of upgrading as well, so long as they don't instant spawn with a full army again.

Trying to decide if I want to try to finish my game before taking a break. We're starting to build up some steam unless whatever with controversy quest does screws it up.

I'm kind of curious to see what it'd look like if instead of a horde of menavliatons I had the battanian fian champ archers just gatling-gunning everything. I figure that any army with shields would eventually get close enough to turn it into a melee fight where the fians would still roast recruits but wouldn't be as cost effective as menavliatons or sturgian infantry.

I also kind of want to see how my menavlions do against a large cavalry charge. Theoretically they should do very well with polarms but it's hard to arrange that with the game as it is now.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Interesting mod that adds more commands to your clan parties:

Party AI Overhaul and Commands

Adds giving advanced orders to your Clan parties on the campaign map, including control over their recruitment. Restricts AI sieges to borders of Kingdoms. Makes the AI more likely to conquer and less

www.nexusmods.com

Caliane · Apr 19, 2020

yeah, fians are still beasts in melee.
no shields though.

I found Empire Legionares to be as strong really. I take them over Menavliatons. My Menavliatons just died too much. im not sure why yours do so well. fighting only recruits? cleave mod? javs vs sword mod? maybe its just a critical mass. 5-10 menavlitions in an army of 100 infantry, the menavliations seemed to be the first to die every time. every fight I'd lose 3+.
legionarres on the other hand. put up k/d ratios of 15/1 every time, similar to Fians.

Also, man what is your bow skill? your doing 2x my bow damage. haha.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Caliane said:
yeah, fians are still beasts in melee.
no shields though.

I found Empire Legionares to be as strong really. I take them over Menavliatons. My Menavliatons just died too much. im not sure why yours do so well. fighting only recruits? cleave mod? javs vs sword mod? maybe its just a critical mass. 5-10 menavlitions in an army of 100 infantry, the menavliations seemed to be the first to die every time. every fight I'd lose 3+.
legionarres on the other hand. put up k/d ratios of 15/1 every time, similar to Fians.

Also, man what is your bow skill? your doing 2x my bow damage. haha.

It's the javs vs swords mod. Without it they'll frequently use their swords which makes them garbage-tier troops. With it they will chew up the front-line of the assaulting force extremely well with javelins and then when the forces crash holy fuck do they smash with their overhead attack.

I nerfed the shit out of the cleave mod by making it only carry 25% of its damage to each successive cleave to where it's not a big factor and more of a fun mod than a big game changer.

Caliane · Apr 19, 2020

Tuco said:
It's the javs vs swords mod. Without it they'll frequently use their swords which makes them garbage-tier troops. With it they will chew up the front-line of the assaulting force extremely well with javelins and then when the forces crash holy fuck do they smash with their overhead attack.

I nerfed the shit out of the cleave mod by making it only carry 25% of its damage to each successive cleave to where it's not a big factor and more of a fun mod than a big game changer.

i still say even at 25%, kindof massively op. like, look at this hit you did. overhand chop.

252 damage, 54 cleave to a second unit. units only HAVE 100 hp. so, that "only 25%" still did 50% of a second units life. you are getting 3 kills with every 2 swings.
and yeah, you multiply that by 100 units cleaving like that, and yes its going to be a very big deal.
not saying, don't do it. just saying, yeah thats going to have a major effect on unit effectiveness. (and make 2h axes useless, and even swords fall way behind.)

your companions look like they are skiling up super fast, and have very high skills too, you have that enabled as well?

theres also clearly some element of attacking Im not getting. I can't reliably control which direction im going to swing from.. like, Ill side slash when trying to overhand chop repeatedly, vice versa.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Caliane said:
i still say even at 25%, kindof massively op. like, look at this hit you did. overhand chop.View attachment 263899

252 damage, 54 cleave to a second unit. units only HAVE 100 hp. so, that "only 25%" still did 50% of a second units life. you are getting 3 kills with every 2 swings.
and yeah, you multiply that by 100 units cleaving like that, and yes its going to be a very big deal.
not saying, don't do it. just saying, yeah thats going to have a major effect on unit effectiveness. (and make 2h axes useless, and even swords fall way behind.)

your companions look like they are skiling up super fast, and have very high skills too, you have that enabled as well?

theres also clearly some element of attacking Im not getting. I can't reliably control which direction im going to swing from.. like, Ill side slash when trying to overhand chop repeatedly, vice versa.

Yeah, its really powerful but the real problem is how fast and how damaging the swingable polearms are. You just cant swing a polearm like its a long piece of PVC pipe and if you could, it wouldn't cleave a man in two like it does. The menavliatons don't have the reach or speed (damage) to really take advantage of the cleaving and are about as effective with or without the mod. What i really want from cleaving is to use "leftover" damage to continue to the next guy, especially if it showed you cleaving through a dude

. This mod at 25% carry through damage is sort of a close approximation of that.

Swingable polearms should either be super slow or basically bounce off of armor because they have no weight.

Another thing that makes them powerful is that if you hit an enemy with the dull stick and not the sharp end, it still does a lot of cutting damage. It should instead do minimal blunt damage, effectively requiring you to hit them with the end to get much damage.

Re: skill up rate yeah i modded that too, but it was also increased in the 1.1 patch.

Re: swing direction, you have to think of the pre swing motion as a windup and just build the muscle memory.

Caliane · Apr 19, 2020

I will point out another balance problem.
you have what 35 companions? you have 35 unkillable units with 200-300 polearm, AND riding, AND bow skill, and who knows how much t6 gear. that also makes Battanian fians/khans guard look like trash. of course you are slaughtering recruits. you don't even have much unit attrition with that. even if the A.I. was fielding higher tier units, you wouldn't even notice as those companions would cut them down too. the recruit thing is a problem of course, but you arent doing yourself any favors in that regards.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Caliane said:
I will point out another balance problem.
you have what 35 companions? you have 35 unkillable units with 200-300 polearm, AND riding, AND bow skill, and who knows how much t6 gear.

true

Caliane said:
that also makes Battanian fians/khans guard look like trash.

false, the elite classes are as good as my companions, but they are rare in an army and the bad horse AI really mitigates most of their impact.

Caliane said:
of course you are slaughtering recruits. you don't even have much unit attrition with that

true!

Caliane said:
even if the A.I. was fielding higher tier units, you wouldn't even notice as those companions would cut them down too.

false! The difference is unmistakable. Besides, the companions don't really do all that much killing in a big fight unless I circle-cheese an army. In that vid the companions did probably half their killing before the menavliatons engaged and the menavliatons still killed over half by the end.

Caliane said:
the recruit thing is a problem of course, but you arent doing yourself any favors in that regards.

true...

There's no question that leveling up companions to a high level and having basically 35 characters that are comprable with the Khan's Guard but don't attrition is a huge advantage over stock bannerlord where you've only got a few companions. But the real fighting force in my army is the fully upgraded normal units, and they are the reason I'm able to (on realistic damage settings) cut through enemy armies while outnumbered 10 to 1.

I'm actually thinking of modding my game and basically replacing all the recruits and T2 units with a couple higher tiers. such that:
imperial_recruit has the same stats as imperial_trained_infantryman
imperial_infantryman has the same stats as imperial_veteran_infantryman
imperial_trained_infantryman has the same stats as imperial_legionary

and so on. It wouldn't take all that long to do. It'd be pretty annoying when they patched and I had to redo it though.

Heriotze · Apr 19, 2020

went with 100% mounted mongols, once I got to about 75 guys I was pretty much unstoppable so i did the stupid banner quest and now my game is fucked I think. Can't prevent the conspiracy against me and I think that the entire world is about to declare war on me. Going to have to hole up in the north west peninsula of the map and hopefully horse archer down all aggressors but it doesn't look good. 100+ horse archers and a few dozen heavy cav has no counter that I've found right now

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Heriotze said:
went with 100% mounted mongols, once I got to about 75 guys I was pretty much unstoppable so i did the stupid banner quest and now my game is fucked I think. Can't prevent the conspiracy against me and I think that the entire world is about to declare war on me. Going to have to hole up in the north west peninsula of the map and hopefully horse archer down all aggressors but it doesn't look good. 100+ horse archers and a few dozen heavy cav has no counter that I've found right now

When I fight the mongols (khuzait) I find the best counter to their horse archers is to cheese the piss out of them by running to the edge of the map, let them try their circle staff bullshit and then charge into them with my cavalry swinging polearms when they circle strafe right into the edge of the map. If they don't immediately retreat to their main force they get cut through.

but yeah cavalry archers are very powerful in Bannerlord because of the AI plays them almost optimally. In Warband they'd run around like losers and do almost nothing. In bannerlord?

Heriotze · Apr 19, 2020

that was part of my tactic in warband as well, let invisible wall stop them, also had all of my cav move forward 100 paces then dismount creating a minefield of horse walls where spearmen could just wreck the cav attackers. They really did a good job fixing the skirmish AI, too good

Caliane · Apr 19, 2020

Heriotze said:
went with 100% mounted mongols, once I got to about 75 guys I was pretty much unstoppable so i did the stupid banner quest and now my game is fucked I think. Can't prevent the conspiracy against me and I think that the entire world is about to declare war on me. Going to have to hole up in the north west peninsula of the map and hopefully horse archer down all aggressors but it doesn't look good. 100+ horse archers and a few dozen heavy cav has no counter that I've found right now

easy enough to just pay for peace anyone that comes at you. its note even a charm role, its just pay em off.
trying to expand with constant declarations of war is tough.

But tuco is was right, starting from the side is much easier, so you don't have to zig zag across the map to deal with opposite factions hitting you at once.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Tuco said:
I'm actually thinking of modding my game and basically replacing all the recruits and T2 units with a couple higher tiers. such that:
imperial_recruit has the same stats as imperial_trained_infantryman
imperial_infantryman has the same stats as imperial_veteran_infantryman
imperial_trained_infantryman has the same stats as imperial_legionary

and so on. It wouldn't take all that long to do. It'd be pretty annoying when they patched and I had to redo it though.

I did this. Basically T1->T3, T2->T4, T3->T4 for all the cultures.

The game is totally different now. Battles take much longer and are way more epic. My companions with T6 armor get trashed really easily and I have to use them sparingly. I'm trying to make a video of it in a fairly even but massive battle between two other factions and I keep losing.

Tuco · Apr 19, 2020

Here's the first big battle I fought. Took me like 10+ attempts to win.

I basically just had my troops ride around like bitches in the back to split their troops up. Normally we'd stride in and just start swinging and end out on top.

BrotherWu · Apr 20, 2020

Anyone seeing crashes when entering the smith (1.2.0 beta)? I haven't been doing any smithing this game because it would not increase (maybe due to the Tweaks mod?) but I decided to start now that I have some cash built up.

edit- Looks like it is the latest update to Tweaks causing it, which I think just started using Modlib. I switched to the Community Patch and they seems to be ok.

Tuco · Apr 20, 2020

[Dev responds] No patch for 2 days

Superficial daily patches are not required. I'd rather they released more substantial patches less frequently.

forums.taleworlds.com

mexxico said:
For 3-4 days I worked on lords to have better tier troops. It will be at beta branch 2-3 days later with other developments :

Here is latest situation after developments, as you see tier1 / tier2 troops are generally 25%+20% = 45% of all troops. It was 45%+25% = 70% before. Also now NPC lords will be visiting settlements & recruting more to fill their party size (more compared current version). Previously they were going enemy lands more frequently with less men (currently using 60% of their party size in average with additions this ratio will rise 80%). Also if they have lots of wounded troops they now go settlement and rest more. Armies will care their food more (they were dying because of starving much and their food management is a bit developed). Sally out exploit (if you lay siege with neutral army thing) will be gone. You will not be able to change troops of villagers / caravans / militias with donate troops option. NPC lords will make better economical management, if they are rich they will recruit more and increase party / garrison sizes (this was already at game but developed). All these improvements will be at beta branch soon (2-3 days).

Also decreased lords escaping probability by 25% / 50% (from mobile party / from settlement). This will be later decreased more when replacement heroes are added to game. Currently it is risky to reduce very much because replacements are not added and some clans only have 1-2 lords. This addition (slightly decreased escaping probability) will be at beta too 2-3 days later.

Also you will be able to hire a caravan including better troops with 50% expensive initial cost and daily wage. However party size will stay at 30. Later new perks will be added giving +5 size to player caravans. I tested latest situation in lots of different save games and still caravans are very good value and travel with very low risk in most cases. I think we lost lots of time discussing this 30 thing. It was something needed and minor compared to other issues. People overreacted it before testing / playing enough.

BrotherWu · Apr 21, 2020

Am I missing something or are you unable to overrule the clans and award it to yourself when deciding a fief? Because it's kinda faggy. One clan with fewer members and lower influence has weaseled its way into more fiefs than me. We should be able to select it for our own in cases where we might have a strategic reason for doing so.

Caliane · Apr 21, 2020

BrotherWu said:
Am I missing something or are you unable to overrule the clans and award it to yourself when deciding a fief? Because it's kinda faggy. One clan with fewer members and lower influence has weaseled its way into more fiefs than me. We should be able to select it for our own in cases where we might have a strategic reason for doing so.

yeah, Idk. seems incomplete. As the ruler, I can't figure out a way to nominate yourself.
it goes up to auction. everyone else gets to spend influence to nominate who can get the fief. Relationships effect when others vote to aid, others. As well as the A.I., does try to spread it out. if you have 6 clan members and 8 fiefs, its going to try giving it to the clan with 7 members and 2 fiefs. Also, the A.I. DOES remember who held a location. usually, if you lose a castle/town, you will get priority from the A.I. even if you have a bunch of fiefs already.

top 3 choices are put up. As ruler you can overrule and pick any of those 3.
If only 2 get nominated... THEN, you are the 3rd option, and you can choose yourself.

Also, as ruler, you can spend influence to force others to give up fiefs, and put them back on auction... but you can't GIVE UP your own fiefs purposely. so, can't take one you want, and give them one you don't.
Need trade 250 for that...

yeah, in my world conquest. I started early with a good number of fiefs, and 2 towns. then as I expanded I was kindof stuck with that for a good while. as I got more vassals, I stopped getting nominated. So, when you only have 3 or less clans, and ALWAYS get one of the 3, be sure to be greedy and take a bunch. get that head start, as you'll stop getting more as you grow.
Suddenly, lately, I've been getting nominated again. Can't say I know exactly why. I guess everyone else hit the point they felt like they had enough, vs their clan size/pop.
of the last 6 cities I've taken, I've had the option to personally claim 3 of them. I turned away Manurath.
i have 4 cities, 6 castles atm.

That julios clan is t4 of 1 guy, who votes for himself every single castle/town. its kindof funny. dude had like 6 castles at one point.

BrotherWu · Apr 21, 2020

Yeah it's really quirky. Like at one point one of my fiefs were lost when I was downtown kicking ass so I went back up and reclaimed it and then was not nominated. Salty as fuck. I rolled with it for a while and finally the turds nominated me for a castle and I gave it to someone else thinking I would cash in on the next city. No joy.

Also, I am not a big fan of auto-peace, auto-war, auto-prisoner barter. All of those make it not-sandboxy. I should be able to do whatever I want whenever I want and deal with the consequences. All of these companion limits, workshop limits, and other cock blocks fuck up what M&B is supposed to be.

Tuco · Apr 22, 2020

Caliane said:
yeah, Idk. seems incomplete. As the ruler, I can't figure out a way to nominate yourself.
it goes up to auction. everyone else gets to spend influence to nominate who can get the fief. Relationships effect when others vote to aid, others. As well as the A.I., does try to spread it out. if you have 6 clan members and 8 fiefs, its going to try giving it to the clan with 7 members and 2 fiefs. Also, the A.I. DOES remember who held a location. usually, if you lose a castle/town, you will get priority from the A.I. even if you have a bunch of fiefs already.

top 3 choices are put up. As ruler you can overrule and pick any of those 3.
If only 2 get nominated... THEN, you are the 3rd option, and you can choose yourself.

Also, as ruler, you can spend influence to force others to give up fiefs, and put them back on auction... but you can't GIVE UP your own fiefs purposely. so, can't take one you want, and give them one you don't.
Need trade 250 for that...

yeah, in my world conquest. I started early with a good number of fiefs, and 2 towns. then as I expanded I was kindof stuck with that for a good while. as I got more vassals, I stopped getting nominated. So, when you only have 3 or less clans, and ALWAYS get one of the 3, be sure to be greedy and take a bunch. get that head start, as you'll stop getting more as you grow.
Suddenly, lately, I've been getting nominated again. Can't say I know exactly why. I guess everyone else hit the point they felt like they had enough, vs their clan size/pop.
of the last 6 cities I've taken, I've had the option to personally claim 3 of them. I turned away Manurath.
i have 4 cities, 6 castles atm.
View attachment 264319

That julios clan is t4 of 1 guy, who votes for himself every single castle/town. its kindof funny. dude had like 6 castles at one point.

how close are you to conquering the world now? Is it getting harder as you get further along?

I'm hoping they release the patch that makes lords train a bit harder before forming up armies and marching to the enemy. In my current playthrough I'm rolling with the Khuzait and we've got a bout 1/3rd of the world. I want to duck out and start my own kingdom soon. I'll probably start in Sturgia.

Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord

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