MTG thread
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114.1. Some spells and abilities require their controller to choose one or more targets for them. The targets are object(s), player(s), and/or zone(s) the spell or ability will affect. These targets are declared as part of the process of putting the spell or ability on the stack. The targets can't be changed except by another spell or ability that explicitly says it can do so.
114.1a An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.)
Example: A sorcery card has the ability "When you cycle this card, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn." This triggered ability is targeted, but that doesn't make the card it's on targeted.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says "Tap two target creatures," then the same creature can't be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.
114.1a An instant or sorcery spell is targeted if its spell ability identifies something it will affect by using the phrase "target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes an object, player, or zone. The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. (If an activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.)
Example: A sorcery card has the ability "When you cycle this card, target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn." This triggered ability is targeted, but that doesn't make the card it's on targeted.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
Example: If a spell says "Tap two target creatures," then the same creature can't be chosen twice; the spell requires two different legal targets. A spell that says "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.
Burren
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Perfect Northerner. Thanks guys.
Both of us have been playing Magic since about 95-96 but never seriously or competitively. It has always just been casual kitchen table Magic. Only this year did we finally try FNM. It was at FNM that we learned that they got rid of mana burn as a thing. Granted, it really didn't change much since none of our decks care all that much about mana burn anyway (well, maybe the new Shrine to Nyx decks might) but I think it got to him a little bit. He was a little surprised to learn of it. More-so than normal maybe. I think it primed him to be ready and willing to accept any and all rules changes that anyone at FNM told him about. He just failed to think critically about this one.
I was like, "Dude, if you're right, then every single Unsummon and or Burn and or Spot Removal card ever made now has a fundamentally new basic value in Magic! Cats sleeping with Dogs! There is no way you are right about this!" He still couldn't see it. I think he just was banking on making me sacrifice my Master Biomancer.... he hates that card (I say with pride)!
114.1 and 601.2c, I must remember!
Both of us have been playing Magic since about 95-96 but never seriously or competitively. It has always just been casual kitchen table Magic. Only this year did we finally try FNM. It was at FNM that we learned that they got rid of mana burn as a thing. Granted, it really didn't change much since none of our decks care all that much about mana burn anyway (well, maybe the new Shrine to Nyx decks might) but I think it got to him a little bit. He was a little surprised to learn of it. More-so than normal maybe. I think it primed him to be ready and willing to accept any and all rules changes that anyone at FNM told him about. He just failed to think critically about this one.
I was like, "Dude, if you're right, then every single Unsummon and or Burn and or Spot Removal card ever made now has a fundamentally new basic value in Magic! Cats sleeping with Dogs! There is no way you are right about this!" He still couldn't see it. I think he just was banking on making me sacrifice my Master Biomancer.... he hates that card (I say with pride)!
114.1 and 601.2c, I must remember!
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My group of friends played that if the source of an activated ability was removed via another activated ability or instant, then the original activated ability was removed from the stack. We played this way casually until about a year ago. We also never bothered to look up the actual progression of the end of main phase through end of combat phase.
So many games would have played out different over the years if we had bothered doing it sooner =p.
So many games would have played out different over the years if we had bothered doing it sooner =p.
Heylel
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It's fairly short and to the point. A guy from Atlanta registered for the Invitational using his teammate's name and DCI number and proceeded to play several rounds. They caught him when he was doing well and ended up on a feature match, but not until after he had already dropped due to losses. The whole thing is blowing up huge on the Atlanta MTG Facebook group because the store owner most closely associated to the team deleted a thread about it before the story broke wide, and there are at least two judge certified players on the team as well who probably knew.
Pretty sure it's ended up in a one year ban from SCG, and I hope more. Beyond just being a pack of assholes, that kind of fraud ripples through the whole tournament. Everyone he played at the Invitational and beat ought to be upset, because they had their tournament stolen from them.
Disqualification in Round 12 | StarCityGames.com
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Wow what a douche. There is a wolf-pack of retards at my local FNM. They have a 'CHAMPION' who has played at (and lost at) multiple PTQs and at least one PT (Dublin I think). I do not know who at FNM fed my buddy the line of shit about re-targeting instants but there is a little part of me who thinks it was them. Not because it is the correct rule, no, but because they figured they could win a single FNM if they convinced this 'sucker' of bad rules. Like I said, retards.
Some people, in any game and/or sport just want to win. They have no respect for the genius of the game and/or sport itself.
Some people, in any game and/or sport just want to win. They have no respect for the genius of the game and/or sport itself.
Arbitrary
Tranny Chaser
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I started buying cards again during Alara block and those kind of FNM superstars drove me away from the game in a few short months. I played from Fallen Empires to Odyssey before selling out completely and the amount of king assholes I had to deal with in that time I can count on one hand. A few weeks of FNM and I would have needed both hands and a foot to count them all. It wasbad.Why people think it's alright to treat someone like shit at a fucking 3 dollar tournament is beyond me.
Maybe it is because of my size / age but I love going to tournaments where it has people like that because I go out of my way to give them as much shit as possible. I could chalk it up to those people who get giddy when they get a telemarketer call and proceed to mess with them.
Arbitrary
Tranny Chaser
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Sure, there was some enjoyment to be had doing that and I loved whenever I could upset one of them but over time it quickly wore on me to even be around them. They were just unpleasant to be in the same room with.
The store I play board games in now has a completely different MtG culture. It's much closer to my early experiences with a very low douchebag ratio. I've been tempted to draft a few times over how decent the regulars are.
The store I play board games in now has a completely different MtG culture. It's much closer to my early experiences with a very low douchebag ratio. I've been tempted to draft a few times over how decent the regulars are.
Enzee
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Btw: Didn't see it mentioned in response to AngryGerbil's question, but the Agent of Fates heroic trigger would still go off after you Unsummon him, btw.
In the situation you mentioned, what SHOULD have happened was this
He casts cutthroat manuever, which targets Insatiable Harpy and Agent of Fates, also triggering Agent of Fates heroic ability to go on the stack (heroic only cares when you cast a spell targeting them, not when the spell resolves). You cast unsummon in response, the active player (whoever's turn it is) decides what order those last two triggers go on the stack but it doesn't matter cause the sacrifice trigger will still happen whether Agent is still on the field or not when it resolves.
So, his harpy gets +1/+1 and lifelink (already has lifelink though), you sac a creature, and agent is back in his hand.
In the situation you mentioned, what SHOULD have happened was this
He casts cutthroat manuever, which targets Insatiable Harpy and Agent of Fates, also triggering Agent of Fates heroic ability to go on the stack (heroic only cares when you cast a spell targeting them, not when the spell resolves). You cast unsummon in response, the active player (whoever's turn it is) decides what order those last two triggers go on the stack but it doesn't matter cause the sacrifice trigger will still happen whether Agent is still on the field or not when it resolves.
So, his harpy gets +1/+1 and lifelink (already has lifelink though), you sac a creature, and agent is back in his hand.
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So Unsummoning the Agent would only really prevent him from attacking me with it, not prevent him from making me sacrifice a creature (which was all I cared about with that play anyway)?
How is this different than Counterspell? What if I Counterpselled his Cutthroat Maneuvers? It would still occupy the same spot on the stack as Simic Charm, yes? So after it resolves, there is no spell to target the Agent, and I sacrifice nothing. But with Simic Charm, there is no Agent for the Cutthroat to target, so I sacrifice nothing.....right? This seems intuitive (to me anyway).
To ask the same question in another way; By this logic, wouldn't Cutthroat still 'target' (and hence trigger) the Agent, even if it is later Counterspelled? I must be missing something on how Instants, The Stack, and Triggered Abilities work...
btw: Are you Zinke the Troll Rogue from Avarice?
Heylel
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Yes, if you Counterspell the Cutthroat Maneuvers it will still trigger the Agent. It's like cascade. It only cares that the spell is cast. One it has been, it doesn't actually matter what happens to it. The order is:
1. Cast Cutthroat Maneuvers.
2. Agent of Fates ability triggers.
3. Priority passes to you, so you can now respond to the casting of Cutthroat Maneuvers.
4. You cast Unsummon.
The stack now looks like:
Unsummon
Agent of Fates trigger
Cutthroat Maneuvers
...and resolves in that order. You Unsummon the Agent, bouncing it to hand. The trigger resolves, no longer caring about the card that sourced it. Cutthroat Maneuvers then searches for its target, cannot find it, becomes countered and goes to the graveyard.
The key to remember is that casting a spell is different from resolving it. You can't actually respond to a casting. If a player has priority, they can cast a spell, period. Another, very different example of this principle:
I cast Chord of Calling for 4. In response, my opponent also casts Chord of Calling for 2. They're both instants, so his resolves first. He searches his library for Gaddock Teeg and puts it into play. Does Gaddock Teeg prevent my Chord from resolving?
The answer is no. Gaddock Teeg only prevents a spell being CAST. Once it is on the stack, you're past that point. My Chord for 4 resolves, so I'm free to go get a Murderous Redcap and pop his Gaddock Teeg.
1. Cast Cutthroat Maneuvers.
2. Agent of Fates ability triggers.
3. Priority passes to you, so you can now respond to the casting of Cutthroat Maneuvers.
4. You cast Unsummon.
The stack now looks like:
Unsummon
Agent of Fates trigger
Cutthroat Maneuvers
...and resolves in that order. You Unsummon the Agent, bouncing it to hand. The trigger resolves, no longer caring about the card that sourced it. Cutthroat Maneuvers then searches for its target, cannot find it, becomes countered and goes to the graveyard.
The key to remember is that casting a spell is different from resolving it. You can't actually respond to a casting. If a player has priority, they can cast a spell, period. Another, very different example of this principle:
I cast Chord of Calling for 4. In response, my opponent also casts Chord of Calling for 2. They're both instants, so his resolves first. He searches his library for Gaddock Teeg and puts it into play. Does Gaddock Teeg prevent my Chord from resolving?
The answer is no. Gaddock Teeg only prevents a spell being CAST. Once it is on the stack, you're past that point. My Chord for 4 resolves, so I'm free to go get a Murderous Redcap and pop his Gaddock Teeg.
Enzee
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Heylel responded with a more detailed explanation, but in short, yea, counterspell doesn't stop heroic from triggering either. Its already been cast when you counter the spell, so the heroic trigger is going on the stack regardless
I was Kirrog in Avarice, and Zinke on the old boards, yea, and you are Cavuto
Grabbit Allworth
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Back from Vegas. Terrible performance. Literally, the worst ever for me. My deck choice was terrible in standard. It didn't help that I meta'gamed the main deck hard for control match-ups that I never saw. Deck was bad, lines were bad, play was bad. It was one of those weekends that competitive players wonder why they even bother.
The real problem was my mental state. I have some major distractions going on and should have just saved the invite for 2014. I'm qual'd for the next three, so, I said what the hell. Even still, it was a waste of time. I didn't even play in the Legacy Open on Sunday due to how dejected I was.
Crying complete.
The DQ. I spent a little time talking with Cam and his buddies (the group involved in the DQ) during day 1. I don't know any of them personally, I just see them at tournaments and Cam (the red-headed guy who came in 3rd at the Invitational in Indy) is relatively successful at Magic. On day 2, I walk up to them after round 10 to see how they're doing and the guy who got DQ'd casually says he slept in late, missed his first round, and got dropped. I was like...wtf? How do you do that at an Invitational? I took it for face value and moved on. I didn't know the real story until I saw the shit explode on the Atlanta Facebook page.
I'm not sure what's been done about it but there will be a BUNCH of suspensions handed out over this and possibly a permanent ban or two once the penalty committee has finished its investigation.
And to the people who PM'd me wanting to hang out in Vegas, I didn't get your messages until I got home. I doubt I would have been much fun to hang out with last weekend anyway. Next time for sure though.
Cam is the guy filming. I'm the guy in the red shoes to his left around the 5:30 mark of the video.
Team Alchemy Wins a Legacy IQ (playtesting to the envelope) - YouTube
The real problem was my mental state. I have some major distractions going on and should have just saved the invite for 2014. I'm qual'd for the next three, so, I said what the hell. Even still, it was a waste of time. I didn't even play in the Legacy Open on Sunday due to how dejected I was.
Crying complete.
The DQ. I spent a little time talking with Cam and his buddies (the group involved in the DQ) during day 1. I don't know any of them personally, I just see them at tournaments and Cam (the red-headed guy who came in 3rd at the Invitational in Indy) is relatively successful at Magic. On day 2, I walk up to them after round 10 to see how they're doing and the guy who got DQ'd casually says he slept in late, missed his first round, and got dropped. I was like...wtf? How do you do that at an Invitational? I took it for face value and moved on. I didn't know the real story until I saw the shit explode on the Atlanta Facebook page.
I'm not sure what's been done about it but there will be a BUNCH of suspensions handed out over this and possibly a permanent ban or two once the penalty committee has finished its investigation.
And to the people who PM'd me wanting to hang out in Vegas, I didn't get your messages until I got home. I doubt I would have been much fun to hang out with last weekend anyway. Next time for sure though.
Cam is the guy filming. I'm the guy in the red shoes to his left around the 5:30 mark of the video.
Team Alchemy Wins a Legacy IQ (playtesting to the envelope) - YouTube