NBA 2013?14 Season

Araxen_sl said:

By the time Durant retires he will be considered a better player than Lebron.

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Scorer maybe. Player? I dunno. Depends on how many rings he ends up with. He'll also forever be the guy who lost to LeBron in the Finals in their primes.

Unless they play each other this year.

The only players that can be compared as far as career achievements go are the ones that are retired.

Gaige_sl said:

Scorer maybe. Player? I dunno. Depends on how many rings he ends up with. He'll also forever be the guy who lost to LeBron in the Finals in their primes.

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Robert Horry must be one of the greatest players ever then? He has seven rings!

When I think of LeBron James, I can't help but remember him losing in the finals in his prime.

Lasch_sl said:

When I think of LeBron James, I can't help but remember him losing in the finals in his prime.

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Which time?

I see what you did there but really, the Cavs Finals was not his prime. When you think about it, he took the fucking Cavaliers to the finals!? That's like Johnny Manziel taking the Browns to the Super Bowl in three years.

If that wasn't part of Lebron's prime, then two years ago wasn't part of Durant's. Either way, using that Finals as a determining factor for their careers is stupid.
Trying to measure their careers against each other at this point is silly. Right now, Lebron would be 4th on my all-time list even if he retired tomorrow. Durant would be somewhere in the 25-50 range, but could easily jump into my Top 10 within a few years. Durant's 4 years younger...I don't know if he has another level and can keep adding elements to his game like Lebron has done the last few years. I'm hoping he does...I love watching greatness. Only thing better than that is greatness vs greatness.

Araxen_sl said:

Robert Horry must be one of the greatest players ever then? He has seven rings!

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Second to Bill Russell.

Ambiturner_sl said:

Which time?

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2011. Considering he was a 4th year player who came straight from high school on a scrub ass Cavs team I wouldn't consider the 07 Finals his "prime".

Djay_sl said:

Either way, using that Finals as a determining factor for their careers is stupid.

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Agreed but I only brought it up assuming they both retire with a few rings. Let's say they each get 3 rings. In the head to head comparison of them, post retirement, you'd have to give LeBron the nod because one of his rings would've come at Durant's expense.

Of course if KD ends up getting a ring at LeBron's expense it's all moot.

KD will always be a great scorer but I'm not sure if he'll ever have LeBron's all-around game. I really wish LeBron would try to score one year - just to see what he could do. He averaged 31ppg as a 3rd year guy at age 21. He is MUCH better now than he was then (about 10% more efficient from the floor) so I wonder what he'd do if he actually tried to score.

Djay_sl said:

If that wasn't part of Lebron's prime, then two years ago wasn't part of Durant's. Either way, using that Finals as a determining factor for their careers is stupid.
Trying to measure their careers against each other at this point is silly. Right now, Lebron would be 4th on my all-time list even if he retired tomorrow. Durant would be somewhere in the 25-50 range, but could easily jump into my Top 10 within a few years. Durant's 4 years younger...I don't know if he has another level and can keep adding elements to his game like Lebron has done the last few years. I'm hoping he does...I love watching greatness. Only thing better than that is greatness vs greatness.

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Agreed. We get spoiled by Magic and Bird joining legendary franchises and winning early. Isaiah took 10 years and Jordan 8 to win their first. Hakeem took 11 and Robinson 11 as well (with Duncan to help him as his career was winding down). Add to the fact they all had at least 3 years in college and most of these guys were nearing 30 or past it when they won their first championship. Even Shaq needed his 8th season, Phil Jackson, and a young Kobe. Based on the last 20 years lebron winning at 28 in his 9th year is on par. So Durant at 25 in his 7th year still 'has time' before we call his career a bust. Isaiah, Hakeem, Shaq, and lebron all lost their first finals. They turned out ok.

PatrickStar_sl said:

I see what you did there but really, the Cavs Finals was not his prime. When you think about it, he took the fucking Cavaliers to the finals!? That's like Johnny Manziel taking the Browns to the Super Bowl in three years.

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Pretty far from the same thing. 2007 was one of those years where the Eastern Conference was just a formality. There wasn't a single legitimate threat to actually win the title in the entire conference. And Cleveland was a 4 seed the year before. It would have been more like the Colts making the Super Bowl this year if somehow the Broncos didn't exist. Impressive, but not Browns Super Bowl level of godliness.

The point was that saying Durant will always be the guy they lost to Lebron in the finals is stupid. By that logic Lebron will always be known as Dirk's bitch.

Plus what happens when Lebron leaves Miami to go to OKC after this season?

Look, no disrespect to Durant, I love the guy. But Lebron is also the best defender in the league and he is physically on another plane entirely when compared to Durant. Sure Durant is a better pure shooter, but Lebron has the best court vision of his generation to go along with the most ridiculous size/speed/skill combination I've ever seen in any athlete, ever. So yeah. Durant is a better scorer, but Lebron still shoots nearly 60% from the floor and his superiority in the rest of his game supersedes any nominal advantage Durant has on offense. That's not to say Durant doesn't have room to improve, but he would need to win four straight MVPs and two titles to catch up with what Lebron has done at age 29. If you just look at this season even after Durant annihilating the league for six weeks their PERs are pretty much identical.

So yeah, Lebron has shown pretty much no signs of slippage, and it's still entirely possible he ends up with his fifth MVP this year if Durant cools off. He's the best player in the league and no one who is serious about basketball is going to tell you otherwise.

Gilgamel_sl said:

Look, no disrespect to Durant, I love the guy. But Lebron is also the best defender in the league and he is physically on another plane entirely when compared to Durant. Sure Durant is a better pure shooter, but Lebron has the best court vision of his generation to go along withthe most ridiculous size/speed/skill combinationI've ever seen in any athlete, ever. So yeah. Durant is a better scorer, but Lebron still shoots nearly 60% from the floor and his superiority in the rest of his game supersedes any nominal advantage Durant has on offense. That's not to say Durant doesn't have room to improve, but he would need to win four straight MVPs and two titles to catch up with what Lebron has done at age 29. If you just look at this season even after Durant annihilating the league for six weeks their PERs are pretty much identical.

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There's really no arguing against that. The only other athlete I can think of in Lebron's realm of freak genetic jackpot is Bo Jackson. I also wouldn't consider Lebron the best defender in the league. He gets a lot of credit for being able to guard any position, but I don't think he's the best at any of them.

Lebron's probably still better today, but they're on the same level and wouldn't be surprised if Durant is straight up better as early as next season

Ambiturner_sl said:

Lebron's probably still better today, but they're on the same level and wouldn't be surprised if Durant is straight up better as early as next season

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Nice trolling. No one with a brain could say this and mean it. Durant may be a better scorer but I doubt he is ever a better all-around player... let alone ever come close to being as good defensively.

Ambiturner_sl said:

Bullshit. Saying they're in completely different leagues is utter retardation

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I'm a Durant fanboy, but you just don't realize how special Lebron is if you disagree with Gilg. He's literally a once in a generation type of player. He's going to be a top 3 player of all time when he finishes, even if he wins nothing else

What are the objective, quantifiable stats that show James' superiority over Durant when it comes to defense this season? I am asking because Durant makes more steals and more blocks per game than James.

Szlia_sl said:

What are the objective, quantifiable stats that show James' superiority over Durant when it comes to defense this season? I am asking because Durant makes more steals and more blocks per game than James.

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Let's start with who is Durant guarding. How often does he guard the best player on the other team?

Defensive personal statistics are almost nonexistent in NBA circles, at least non-proprietary ones. But you can start by watching the game. The Heat play a system designed basically around Lebron, it's all about pressuring the ball and trapping and forcing turnovers so they can turn the single most unstoppable fast break force in the history of the league loose. I mean the guy probably gets 10-12 points a game for his team directly due to either deflections, his own one man fast breaks, or making great outlet passes off turnovers. This means Lebron also almost never sits back and plays help-side rim protector, which is why his blocked shots are down from almost 1 a game to under half of one a game now. He only blocks shots now when he gets pissed off and he chases someone down from behind on a break, at least in the games I see. They play a completely different system than any other team in the league.

Durant on the other hand is the off post defender most of the time in a system with a legitimate rim protector in Ibaka. When he's at the 3 he still guards the other team's 4 a lot because Ibaka is better at contesting pick and rolls, and they have a designated #1 wing defender in Sefolosha. Durant is way better than he was when he came into the league(obviously, he had super-model arms back then), but I don't watch them enough to know if he's started to make the leap his frame and agility would indicate he's capable of(think prime Tayshaun Prince). All I know is Lebron is probably not going to get any better as a defender, and Wade's decline is making him have to save himself for offense more and more. The gap will only shrink as Lebron gets older, but physically Durant will never approach what Lebron was from like 22-28.

That's my opinion anyway. Bear in my mind I never played organized basketball above rec league, but I do watch 5-6 games a week and I follow it closer than anything but football. It's really a great time to be an NBA fan, lots of new ways to evaluate players and twitter has done more for NBA nights watching experience than any other sport I think.

Objective, quantifiable stats don't work very well for defense. If you're a lockdown defender people won't try attempting very many shots on you so there's not going to be the blocks/steals. You also get a surprising amount of blocks out of shorter players with great jumping ability. Players think they have a larger window than they do and get surprised (5'9" Nate Robinson had some pretty nasty blocks on players like Shaq and Yao Ming), but they're not otherwise top tier defenders by any means. You really have to watch both players with and away from the ball for a while to get an idea of how good of a defender they are.

Lebron's been telling anyone that will listen that he should win DPOY, but his D has been inconsistent and clearly declining over the last year or two. I still give Lebron the clear edge in defense over Durant, but I think people are vastly overrating Lebron. There hasn't been any real competition until this year. He lost to a mediocre Dallas team followed by beating a not ready OKC and then a 6 years past their prime Spurs (who were seconds away from winning in 6 until they forgot how to rebound). They're not the unstoppable juggernaut like the 90s Bulls that the Lebron fanboys want them to be. If they beat a hungry Indiana and OKC this year I'll be far more impressed.

And Shaq '99-'03 was a more dominant player than Lebron on both sides of the court. Not sure why he's always overlooked.

ham_sl said:

I'm a Durant fanboy, but you just don't realize how special Lebron is if you disagree with Gilg. He's literally a once in a generation type of player. He's going to be a top 3 player of all time when he finishes, even if he wins nothing else

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And Durant isn't? He could go down as the best offensive player in the history of the league. He put up a 50-40-90 split at age 24. He is just entering his prime, let us see what he does with it.