New World

Kirun said:

And that's why they created cash shops. Because it was a way to recoup losses from entitled gamers who think games should somehow never increase in price - or at the very least recoup the loss from entitled gamers by getting whales to spend more. Again, I'm not saying it's something I agree with, but gamers also need to own up to their part in this genre (and whole industry, honestly) having shitty practices and predatory pricing. Especially on a forum that for the most part, loves capitalism.

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I just wish capitalism was more present in our lives, I was watching the superbowl this year and thinking man we wouldn't have to be watching Tom Brady win if you could text 555 to the NFL to pay 15 dollars to vote on which way you wanted the coaches challenge to go.

mkopec said:

Now exp pots could be considered P2W, I mean its time, its all about time invested in games like these and anything that removes some of that time could be considered to be P2W. One could argue that exp pots could be the same thing as some super elite weapon. The weapon kills shit faster, therefor more exp per hour, exp pots make you gain more exp. Same shit really. In a PvE sense at least.

But past the first few weeks/month when almost everyone is at end game none of this shit matters either, so...

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Yeah, I just have a different viewpoint on what it actually means to be "P2W". I consider P2W as something that literally makes my character better with no other means of obtaining it via in-game means. If somebody wants to blow their paycheck on EXP pots and level to cap in 1 week instead of 3 months? Who gives a fuck.

Now, if you're suddenly able to make your character's STR stat 10% better via buying a cash shop item that I can't get via raiding/PvP/etc.? That's P2W in my eyes.

rhinohelix said:

Blizzard needs a new Blizzard, just like Intel, Microsoft, etc. needs competition to keep them sharp, and in this case, since no one was able to compete in the MMO space, its come via other Genres. If people are mad because Amazon is using the same system to monitize their game that others have used, would they have been even angrier if they had gone sub? Riots in the streets if they had both? People would only been happy if it was BPM was no GAAS component at all? Was it going to run on Hopium and Crowdfunding? Chris Roberts uber alles? That is how the industry dies; remove any chance of a return, and there won't be any games at all.

TLDR. A Cash shop isn't going to kill a MMO; a shitty unfun game is. The game has to make money somehow. They aren't going to sell ads or farm clicks or install an agent to mine bitcoin.

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No, that's the thing--I don't think the genre needs a new Blizzard. I think Blizzard took one of a number of directions for MMOs and it ended up being the worst one given the current market (With the proliferation of small scale online games). Unfortunately, in that small window of time--Blizzard was the only success story, so now every investment is tied to this model which can not compete in the current market (With high online connectivity and extremely good/efficient matchmaking platforms).

And the reason why cash shops are bad is because I think cash-shops all but force Devs to follow that theme park direction. No one was hoping this would be free; I think most were hoping for a subscription model. Because a sub model still represents the possibility that the devs can break free from that mold.

But a cash shop B2P or F2P model will almost definitely coral them into the mind set of "gamifying" every system--so they can control the amount of time more precisely that players are expected to put in--so they can sell shortcuts to make money. Its a terrible model that dooms MMOs to fail; because the "mini-game" Theme-Park design that results will always be worse than small scale experiences within the same genre.

rhinohelix said:

"Supposed to be about"? Respectfully, what does that even mean? To be part of a larger world, with lots of other people doing things going on that don't involve you. I was present at the start of the MMO era, UO, EQ, (I remember there was something before UO on some service but for the life of me I can't remember sitting here. I was a Lord British Fan from Apple II days so I was down for whatever UO was going to be) probably like a a lot of people here. A pumped up Minecraft server was never what I had in mind for an "MMO" experience. It's cool to be sure, and I would have loved it but it wasn't what a **Massively** Multiplayer Online RPG was supposed to be. NWN server was more in line with the Valheim experience.

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I know you already responded, but Mist has my thoughts exactly. Valheim is a perfect example of where I hoped the MMO space would be in 20 years (Except in a massively, persistent way with more content), instead of hung up on this terrible theme park model. The only problem with Valheim is its not a massively shared world, and its content is limited in certain ways. But that general feel of the world being important is there--and that's what nearly every modern MMO is missing.

They are not worlds anymore...They are 3d city lobbies where you sign up to play a minigame. Those mini-games are often significantly worse versions of stand-alone games. The only advantage of playing an MMO to do PvP, or Crafting or RPG character building (IE the 'attractions') is the fact that the character you do it with is persistent, and progresses in relation to other random people.

Except...here is the problem. When you take away "the world" aspect of your MMO...do those other people even matter? In most modern theme parks they do not. So what does being "massive" matter if I don't have to give a shit about any other person?

The answer: They don't, and you're better off playing random small scale games. Which is what everyone ended up doing and why the genre is dying. I've said it before, but social media designers understood what makes MMOs attractive more than MMO designers have.

Lithose said:

I know you already responded, but Mist has my thoughts exactly. Valheim is a perfect example of where I hoped the MMO space would be in 20 years, instead of hung up on this terrible theme park model. The only problem with Valheim is its not a massively shared world, and its content is limited in certain ways. But that general feel of the world being important is there--and that's what nearly every modern MMO is missing.

They are not worlds anymore...They are 3d city lobbies where you sign up to play a minigame. Those mini-games are often significantly worse versions of stand-alone games. The only advantage of playing an MMO to do PvP, or Crafting or RPG character building is the fact that the character you do it with is persistent, and progresses in relation to other random people.

Except...here is the problem. When you take away "the world" aspect of your MMO...do those people even matter? In most modern theme parks they do not. So what does being "massive" matter if I don't have to give a shit about any other person?

The answer: They don't, and you're better off playing random small scale games. Which is what everyone ended up doing and why the genre is dying. I've said it before, but social media designers understood what makes MMOs attractive more than MMO designers have.

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But the question is, can we ever go back to that? And how? Games existed as "worlds" because maps had to be hand drawn in '99. Easily available 3D modelling tools, AUTOCAD, etc. didn't exist in 2000. Similarly, neither did massive info databases, massive data mining, cloud servers, all of that. You had to "live" or feel the world. You had to remember landmarks, you had to be careful without night vision, etc. The tools just weren't there to hand this knowledge to the masses.

Go play EQ now. Ro and Karana are almost utterly lifeless in the grand scheme of things. FAR less "living" than modern MMOs. The only reason the worlds in '99 felt alive is because it was something totally new and undiscovered. Something you literally couldn't easily discover. You had to rely on self, tribal knowledge, or the very few websites out there devoted to it. Most of which loaded slower than shit with the tech available at the time - thus causing most people to not bother.

I just don't know how realistic creating a "world" with the computing power of PCs/Internet in 2021 is. I imagine going West in the 1840s was absolutely thrilling and totally unknown. How exciting is it driving from PA to OR in 2021? Most people would consider it a "boring" chore. Technology moved on. You just can't really do it without randomizing/procedurally generating maps/worlds. Good luck doing that for thousands and thousands of players. Then the question is, how do you play with your friends? Your guildmates? I'm sure technology will get there one day, but it feels like a looooong ways off.

Lithose said:

Except...here is the problem. When you take away "the world" aspect of your MMO...do those other people even matter? In most modern theme parks they do not. So what does being "massive" matter if I don't have to give a shit about any other person?

The answer: They don't, and you're better off playing random small scale games. Which is what everyone ended up doing and why the genre is dying. I've said it before, but social media designers understood what makes MMOs attractive more than MMO designers have.

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Even in old school MMO, most times people didn't give a shit about other people once they got to a certain point where they didn't need to worry about that (ie, they get into a stable guild). In EQ1, for the most part the uber guilds didn't give much of a shit about the plebs beyond showing off how leet they were. You didn't go out of your way to be a dick to people, but at the same time, 90% of the server might as well not even exist. The only people we even had to acknowledge the existence of were people who were a direct competition to what we were doing.

That isn't to say people weren't social, but I think people get trapped in false assumption that something different is lesser than what they were used to. Like people of my generation look at young kids on their smart phones and think "ugh, these kids stuck to their phones and not paying attention to anything or interacting with other people". Except they are interacting with other people (just differently), and we forget that when we were young, talking on a landline for 2 hours with someone in the same town happened, or chatting on some old school ASCII BBS or AOL.

Cybsled said:

Even in old school MMO, most times people didn't give a shit about other people once they got to a certain point where they didn't need to worry about that (ie, they get into a stable guild). In EQ1, for the most part the uber guilds didn't give much of a shit about the plebs beyond showing off how leet they were. You didn't go out of your way to be a dick to people, but at the same time, 90% of the server might as well not even exist. The only people we even had to acknowledge the existence of were people who were a direct competition to what we were doing.

That isn't to say people weren't social, but I think people get trapped in false assumption that something different is lesser than what they were used to. Like people of my generation look at young kids on their smart phones and think "ugh, these kids stuck to their phones and not paying attention to anything or interacting with other people". Except they are interacting with other people (just differently), and we forget that when we were young, talking on a landline for 2 hours with someone in the same town happened, or chatting on some old school ASCII BBS or AOL.

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There is a huge difference between not giving a shit after interacting, sometimes for prolonged periods, 40+ people and not giving a shit from the get go.

The whole point of those interactions is to force you to form a social group in the game--those relationships keep you coming back. It doesn't have to be large, but it does have to be. 99% of the people you will not care about--but the game should always provide you with the experience of meeting that one in a hundred that becomes someone you want to work with, or you really want to fuck with. That's the entire point of these games.

Kids these days are smart for avoiding terrible games like modern MMOs. They understand you can meet people, and have fun in far superior ways than this by cutting out the need for a fancy 3d lobby. So in a sense, you're spot on in that regard. IMO, I think kids these days haven't changed much in terms of gaming, they just can get what we got out of MMOs in other, far superior, games.

Kirun said:

But the question is, can we ever go back to that? And how? Games existed as "worlds" because maps had to be hand drawn in '99. Easily available 3D modelling tools, AUTOCAD, etc. didn't exist in 2000. Similarly, neither did massive info databases, massive data mining, cloud servers, all of that. You had to "live" or feel the world. You had to remember landmarks, you had to be careful without night vision, etc. The tools just weren't there to hand this knowledge to the masses.

Go play EQ now. Ro and Karana are almost utterly lifeless in the grand scheme of things. FAR less "living" than modern MMOs. The only reason the worlds in '99 felt alive is because it was something totally new and undiscovered. Something you literally couldn't easily discover. You had to rely on self, tribal knowledge, or the very few websites out there devoted to it. Most of which loaded slower than shit with the tech available at the time - thus causing most people to not bother.

I just don't know how realistic creating a "world" with the computing power of PCs/Internet in 2021 is. I imagine going West in the 1840s was absolutely thrilling and totally unknown. How exciting is it driving from PA to OR in 2021? Most people would consider it a "boring" chore. Technology moved on. You just can't really do it without randomizing/procedurally generating maps/worlds. Good luck doing that for thousands and thousands of players. Then the question is, how do you play with your friends? Your guildmates? I'm sure technology will get there one day, but it feels like a looooong ways off.

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Yeah, you'll never be able to create a world like you could in 99. You're right, quite a few of the more magical elements are dead and probably dead forever simply due to technology; but there are also quite a few that were killed due to choice, that I think can be brought back. For example; you can recreate the 'world' in the sense that other people are important and/also still emphasize parts of the world so it feels impactful and important. This involves the developers understanding what people say, and what they actually want are not always the same thing; it also involves them understanding the main attraction in MMOs is not the game; its the people.

One trap I constantly see developers falling into is this design to get players into their 'content' so its utilized, through things like raid finders and cross-server grouping. This, IMO, presents a fundamental lack of understanding about what makes MMO's addicting, and instead highlights what makes them underwhelming games.

Don't get me wrong, you can't go back to shouting in a zone for a group. But there are other avenues between the completely sterile experience of instant content delivery with minimal human aggravation, and the kind of frustration of finding a group in EQ. Like all things--the dosage is the poison, and I think most MMOs today have removed a lot of the human element that makes worlds...well, into worlds. (But you're right, the actual feeling like this is a world to explore can't be like what it was--but that's also the same for single player games, too. But there are many factors that didn't have to be killed, that were because designers wanted to highlight their game, and minimize the impact of the world.)

I think it comes down to how information is gained and distributed. Not only was EQ introduced in a more primitive time but the player base obtained and retained knowledge differently than now. You had a lot of table top and retro PC/console gamers that used books, handwritten notes, and drawing by default. Sites like Allakhazam's, EQ-lizer, etc. were somewhat revolutionary at that time in terms of scale but even now, those ideas are somewhat primitive. We went from forums and chats to discord. We still have sites for certain things like builds and such i.e. Wowhead and icy-veins but a lot of information comes through different channels and even in-game. You don't need maps, item lists, etc. anymore. I had printed binders for quests, items, maps, etc. I can go to one menu in WoW, see each boss, where they're located, and what they drop. I can even install add-ons that share strats and tons of other information all in-game without any need to explore, discover, or trial and error. I can what YouTube videos on how to kill a boss and much more.

To me, IF you want to see the olden days restored to an extent, and I think it would be good for the gaming industry to do so in regards to MMO's, they're going to have to decide just how many resources are a part of the game or in the hands of the community. I think Valhiem demonstrated that people still want to explore, discover, and wonder and they're not necessarily afraid to die. EQ was punishing and we can argue if it's was challenging or unnecessarily time-consuming all day but what was really magical was that it took the community to make the game what it was/is. There's no doubt some of that would not be popular today but I think with the right creative minds and a balance of new and old, it's very possible. Out of all the games in the last 10+ years, Valhiem has been the closest I have felt to what I felt in early EQ. I understand they don't have WoW numbers but if a new EQ or any MMO came out with what I feel would be the spiritual successor to the MMO's of old and sold 2-3 or even 5 million copies, I would consider it very successful. From a business perspective, that probably doesn't sound like a win but if you could get a small shop (Valheim has like what... 5 people? so maybe 10-15) creating a game without the shadows of big business looming over them, I think you could really make something awesome.

Lithose said:

Don't get me wrong, you can't go back to shouting in a zone for a group. But there are other avenues between the completely sterile experience of instant content delivery with minimal human aggravation, and the kind of frustration of finding a group in EQ. Like all things--the dosage is the poison, and I think most MMOs today have removed a lot of the human element that makes worlds...well, into worlds. (But you're right, the actual feeling like this is a world to explore can't be like what it was--but that's also the same for single player games, too. But there are many factors that didn't have to be killed, that were because designers wanted to highlight their game, and minimize the impact of the world.)

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You do this in elderscrolls online. There is no raid finder, at all. Clears are prestige and buying a clear is 50m+ gold.

edit: After experiencing this in a modern setting, and after migrating from raid finder tools, there needs to be a middle ground. I believe there should absolutely be a tool that queues people up for normal tuned content. However anything with increased difficulty should require the group to be formed via players. One of the issues in TESO is currently you will stand around shouting LFG/making groups just to do normal raid content to start gearing up. Or even if you're a higher tiered player wanting to have fun, mess around, or just play. There's no queue system in place for TESO with their content for more than 4 players. I've never had personal issues with this, however players less adept at forming groups and socializing, it becomes an issue.

Honestly this just sounds like old men yelling at kids to get off their lawn

1) I am going to guess that younger people are going to be more social in average because they have more free time. A lot of the QoL comes from complaints from people with jobs/responsibilities. When I finish work, I want to play the game. Not spend 1 hour trying to put together a group or try to coordinate with other people with their own jobs/responsibilities. Does that sometimes align and I can? Sure. Keep in mind a large chunk of us in the EQ era were in high school or in college and had a lot more free time

2) smaller scale games replicate the mmo experience on a small scale. A generation of kids growing up on stuff like Minecraft and similar games are used to more curated content experiences on a smaller scale. Like my nephew used to play on some Minecraft server kids at his school would all join and play on. The appeal of being a face in a sea of thousands is less appealing than being a person in a smaller community

TJT said:

IDK man. If Valhiem is any kind of barometer, along with other more sandbox-leaning games like Minecraft, there definitely is a way for games to feel like 'worlds.' As opposed to mini-game lobbies. We can't put the genie back in the bottle in terms of complex data mining tools that didn't exist in 1999 but now data rape WOW the second something hits the test server that is true.

Many series out there rely on tribal knowledge to make it through and that is still appealing to me. This is why the Monster Hunter series had such a cult following originally.

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Valheim only worked because it had procedural generation, which I mentioned as being one of the only ways to bring back that sense of wonderment or "world" feeling. Problem is, it only works at the small scale currently (tech will probably get there for large scale, eventually). But even then, how quickly did you have people sharing boss locations, strats, etc.? Within hours. It took only a few days before people had the game "complete" and the information was everywhere. Fuck, you literally have world generator tools for Valheim that plug in your seed and show you what the map will look like once fully explored.

I just don't see how the genie ever gets put back in the bottle. You're able to have moments of that, for sure. But, they only really exist at the small scale in terms of players and they only exist for very brief moments (1-2 weeks at most).

Poop sockers are the vocal ones, but I doubt the majority. At the end of the day, these are a business. If you want your business to exclude a large population and only cater to a smaller one, that’s fine, but in turn you cant cry about not making as much money at the same time