New World

Emergent gameplay you described is basically accidental mechanics due to code. That is like saying exploiting to make dupes is emergent gameplay because the developers cant figure out how to fix it.

Emergent gameplay is more like FD pulling and camp breaking.

Emergent gameplay is designing a world where the devs haven't decided every little thing. In WoW the devs decided you need to be level 20-23 to complete the murloc slaughter quest, any lower and you can't hit the mobs because they are deep red, any higher and the xp is not worthwhile compared to just killing mobs. And it extends literally throughout the entire game, raids are hard capped at X players, you can't bring more and you probably can't complete it with less.

In EQ you could bring 70 if you sucked and kill the boss that someone good could kill with 25, the downside was your split of loot was 3x less, that is actually good design, people talk about letting players see content but not rewarding you the same if you are shitter, well EQ literally did that, and it felt so much better if getting an item from your shitter raid of 70 than it does for LFR because that item was a uber item even if you only had one item compared to a better guild where the members had 5 each. Designing like that also means having perfect balance isn't needed

To some extent ya EQ was unexpected gameplay but they also never tried to expect everything, WoW devs literally sit in a room and think about how to keep you on rails, the EQ devs didnt do that, they designed a game with a DND core do unexpected shit just like any other DND game because the concern of the game wasn't perfect balance.

I personally think ESO is worse than GW2

Lithose said:

Kids these days are smart for avoiding terrible games like modern MMOs. They understand you can meet people, and have fun in far superior ways than this by cutting out the need for a fancy 3d lobby. So in a sense, you're spot on in that regard. IMO, I think kids these days haven't changed much in terms of gaming, they just can get what we got out of MMOs in other, far superior, games.

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I dont think this is true actually. Youre right that modern MMOs are terrible games but there really isnt a good replacement for them. MOBAs (a genre that is well on its way in the downslope in its own right) were defined by having the most toxic, subhuman community in existence. We may remember MMOs for the characters who displayed the apex of degeneracy, but MOBAs are just full of degenerates. And what's come after? The Zoomer Battle Royales where 10 year olds inject ADHD stimulants into their veins to such a degree that you parachute down and die in 5 minutes, then leave the lobby immediately without caring one whit about who killed you or who else was there, much less who wins. A completely soulless experience. You can play with friends yes, and you can play dress up just like you could in MMOs (provided you can find and swipe your parents credit card), but you meet no one.

Go watch a popular twitch streamer for like 30 minutes. There are an insane number of kids who donate these very personal, oversharey and uncomfortable messages to 30 year old degens calling them "Sir" or "Dad" ironically - except it's an irony that isnt all that funny. The parasocial stuff is bad, I'm sure it's always existed with celebs and the like, but now it's a ton of kids who play games all day or are just online (the Kpop stan garbage is an outgrowth of the same shit) because I have to imagine it's the majority of the social interaction they experience at all. Like what is the game where you meet people in the same way we did whether it was in EQ or FFXI or DAOC or WoW back in the day, or even an online forum where you could talk to people with similar interests if you didnt already know them? I guess you join a grooming discord or shout into the void of twitter? Not seeing a big improvement over the options of the past

I think honestly this may be why a ton of people look to politics as a game now. It gives them that sense of community and purpose they lack elsewhere and it not being fulfilled elsewhere is its own problem, but the most optimized MMO on the market is twitter and thats where you find the most deranged players

Just to point something out, Fortnite is 4 years old now. Four years after WoW came out is when Wrath released, long after I had quit the game and near the peak of its subscriber base. Warhammer Online released around this time

What is the most popular stuff on Twitch right now? #1 is GTAV, which is mostly there because streamers all get on one server and role play as random people in a town. You could definitely categorize that as an evolution of the MMO concept, but I dont think thats something kids are actually playing. Theyre just watching it. Then you have Just Chatting, which is half twitch whores, half parasocial, all shit. League, which is 12 years old. Minecraft, which is 10, then APEX and Warzone as your (more successful) Warhammer equivalents along Valorant, another MMR shithole, before you get to gambling, CS: GO, Fortnite, WoW and Dota as the mainstays

Where's the cool new community that is so much better than the MMO? The GTAV thing actually suggests to me theres a market for one. But one look at steamcharts just shows people are playing the same shit theyve played for a decade:

Tearofsoul said:

I personally think ESO is worse than GW2

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Does GW2 have a way to separate the boys from men? For example ESO gives players the ability to really max the output of a build. One player might do 60k DPS with a build, where another player may do 85k, or upwards to 100k, with the exact same build. What does this mean? It allows for various groups of poopsockers to complete content.


GW2 is obviously pretty successful and it's the only popular MMO I haven't been to end game with however, it seems like an easier WoW to me. Anyone feel free to correct me on this

Xerge said:

Does GW2 have a way to separate the boys from men? For example ESO gives players the ability to really max the output of a build. One player might do 60k DPS with a build, where another player may do 85k, or upwards to 100k, with the exact same build. What does this mean? It allows for various groups of poopsockers to complete content.


GW2 is obviously pretty successful and it's the only popular MMO I haven't been to end game with however, it seems like an easier WoW to me. Anyone feel free to correct me on this

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Last time I played was Heart of Thorns. But the content at the top end was relatively difficult. Of course its all easy once you know it. But no, none of the rotations are like ESO's. All that weaving and weapon swapping is pushing that shit into overload in ESO. I think I would have gotten used to ESO rotations - one, if I played longer than I did. Two, if everything I did didnt die in 15 seconds. But just from learning the basics of that stuff, I was able to solo shit I used to not be able to. GW2 differs in just knowing what reacts with what and properly reacting to your first actions. At least, thats my take and I completed all content in Heart of Thorns.

Daidraco said:

Last time I played was Heart of Thorns. But the content at the top end was relatively difficult. Of course its all easy once you know it. But no, none of the rotations are like ESO's. All that weaving and weapon swapping is pushing that shit into overload in ESO. I think I would have gotten used to ESO rotations - one, if I played longer than I did. Two, if everything I did didnt die in 15 seconds. But just from learning the basics of that stuff, I was able to solo shit I used to not be able to. GW2 differs in just knowing what reacts with what and properly reacting to your first actions. At least, thats my take and I completed all content in Heart of Thorns.

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I have a raid target dummy in my house now that you can practice on, it gives you all the buffs and synergies to simulate a dps parse. Good shit. People love to dummy hump and push builds now... pretty wild. The problem you have is not being able to pug veteran level content easily to practice that level of game play -- I understand it.

MMOs should have a way for players to push them selves, bordering emergent gameplay.

Ya, shit like elephant aggro and teleporting mobs.

Xerge said:

Does GW2 have a way to separate the boys from men? For example ESO gives players the ability to really max the output of a build. One player might do 60k DPS with a build, where another player may do 85k, or upwards to 100k, with the exact same build. What does this mean? It allows for various groups of poopsockers to complete content.


GW2 is obviously pretty successful and it's the only popular MMO I haven't been to end game with however, it seems like an easier WoW to me. Anyone feel free to correct me on this

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GW2 definitely has a high skill ceiling. But it's not gear based. Getting the best gear is important but once you have it you are pretty much done. Gear doesn't reset after an expansion comes out. Different types of gear stats go in and out of vogue, so you sometimes have to farm new gear with those stats. Unless you have legendary gear (monster grind) which can switch between all stats.

To get high dps numbers for most classes requires you to know all of the class combo abilities / fields and the proper stats for the encounter, Many of those combo fields come from other classes so maxing out dps, etc requires team work. High end raiding and WvW groups are amazing to see.

GW2 and WoW really are apples and oranges. They are mmo's but after that the similarities diverge quite a bit.

rhinohelix said:

We all understand, man. Run go play be free!

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OK, what is that from?