NHL 2016-17 Season

Eomer said:

The Sedin's have refused to waive their NTC when asked. That's not on Canucks management. That's on them. They are apparently content in closing out their careers as losers.

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I've never heard any reports of this, would like to see where you're getting this from. Also not really sure there would be a trade market for them anyways. Who has that much roster or cap space who's a contender? I have no ill will for them at all, they'e spent their adult lives here and donated millions to charity and are the best franchise players we've had, they were content to guide the next generation of youth and would have been good in that role. Hell, Benning couldn't even trade the players who wanted to be traded at the deadline. The Sedins are way low on the list of people to blame.

Unfortunately this team has been mismanaged since Aqualini started forcing Gillis to make stupid decisions like hire Torts. Benning has been a trainwreck.

MusicForFish said:

Shame they choke so hard when he pressures on.

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So salty. Sedin's have been good playoff performers since their breakout.

Cant blame the twins for not being traded, its the situation, they make too much money for their age to be moved together and most folks understand they lose a ton of value with out each other.

As a life long Canucks fan I have no ill will to these two as they brought years of excitement to the team.

Did they tank in the playoffs, sure they did, but that's on the whole team and especially the management for not going for the toughness that was required to offset the twins, when they did go for the toughness they did it wrong....

Dave Nonis followed by Gillis fucking sucked.

Gillis and his 12 year luongo contract....WTF, I really liked Lou and still thought it was stupid.

Nester said:

Gillis and his 12 year luongo contract....WTF, I really liked Lou and still thought it was stupid.

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That contract was just like all the other ones being handed out at the time. The fact that those weren't grandfathered in was so shitty. Luongo is still an elite goaltender at his age too, I really like what Florida did with their goaltending.

Canucks had the team in 2011, that team broke historical NHL records for how good they were. #1 PP, PK, GF, GA, SV%, everything that matters they owned. They ran into brutal injuries, bad shooting luck, a goalie on an insane hotstreak, and a bunch of suspect suspension/non-suspension calls as well as essentially no penalties called.

Gillis was easily the best GM the Canucks ever had. Obviously you could find missteps just like any GM, but he hit far more than he missed. I give him a pass for the end times because I suspect that was likely the result of owner meddling.

Haka said:

Gillis was easily the best GM the Canucks ever had. Obviously you could find missteps just like any GM, but he hit far more than he missed. I give him a pass for the end times because I suspect that was likely the result of owner meddling.

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I see your Mike Gillis and raise you a Pat Quinn.
Traded for Captian Kirk, Picked Trevor and Pavel Bure in the Draft. Took the team to game 7 in the Cup Finals in 94 (like Gillis in 2011)

Haka said:

Canucks had the team in 2011, that team broke historical NHL records for how good they were. #1 PP, PK, GF, GA, SV%, everything that matters they owned. They ran into brutal injuries, bad shooting luck, a goalie on an insane hotstreak, and a bunch of suspect suspension/non-suspension calls as well as essentially no penalties called.

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/sigh....yeah.

Hmm, I thought I had seen talk that they'd been asked about waiving the NTC, and had indicated they weren't interested and wanted to finish out their careers with the Canucks. Just did some Googling and couldn't find anything to back that up. Perhaps I had them confused with Hamhuis or something?

In any case, there'd be a market for them, even with their contracts. The Canucks would have to retain a lot of salary, of course, but there'd be a return there.

Slaythe said:

Anxious to watch the Wild with a real coach this year. If we're a first round loss team again with BB in charge I'll admit to that being this team's ceiling. That'll be a tough admission considering how locked we are to Parise and Suter for a while here.

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You will. In a Game 7. After being up 3 games to 2.

Eomer said:

The Sedin's have refused to waive their NTC when asked. That's not on Canucks management. That's on them. They are apparently content in closing out their careers as losers.

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And who gave them NTC's? Management.

Merrith said:

And who gave them NTC's? Management.

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You're seriously blaming management for giving the best players we've ever had NTC's? We wouldn't have likely resigned them without them. Star veteran players get NTC's, you have to accept that. And the Sedins are still good and easily our best players. I don't see why you guys are fixated on this, do you want to be like the Oilers? How well has that worked, having no decent veterans to shoulder the load for the young guys coming in?

Seriously, I'm critical of management in many ways but this is overboard. Sedins are underrated even by their own team.

Nester said:

I see your Mike Gillis and raise you a Pat Quinn.
Traded for Captian Kirk, Picked Trevor and Pavel Bure in the Draft. Took the team to game 7 in the Cup Finals in 94 (like Gillis in 2011)

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Quinn was good, no doubt. But he was also the reason for Bure leaving, as well as he completely fumbled getting Gretzky, and signed Messier instead, which I don't think anyone wants to talk about. That 94 team is so popular too because they were a Cinderella team essentially. The 2011 team was a powerhouse, back to back president's trophy winners.

Eomer said:

Hmm, I thought I had seen talk that they'd been asked about waiving the NTC, and had indicated they weren't interested and wanted to finish out their careers with the Canucks. Just did some Googling and couldn't find anything to back that up. Perhaps I had them confused with Hamhuis or something?

In any case, there'd be a market for them, even with their contracts. The Canucks would have to retain a lot of salary, of course, but there'd be a return there.

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Hamhuis did for a while drag his feet on waiving his NTC, but even he gave the Canucks a decent list of suitable teams. Unfortunately, Benning only asked for it like 10 days before the deadline and gave himself no time to make the deal, and then a potentially deal with Dallas was nixed by management because the owners don't like each other (Dallas's owner used to be part owner of the Canucks).

We had plenty of decent assets to trade, and we got nothing. Why we didn't trade Vrbata in the offseason after it was decided he wouldn't play with the Sedins anymore, I don't know. We also apparently had inquiries about Miller. I don't think trading the Sedins makes sense, both from a hockey or a business perspective, though.

The Canuck's biggest failing is turning two excellent starting goaltender in to magic beans. Far and away. And then signing Ryan Miller to a huge contract right as he was about to fall off a cliff performance wise. Can we keep this up? I love talking about how awful the Canucks are going to be for the next several seasons. It's a nice distraction from how fucking brutal the Oilers have been.

Eomer said:

The Canuck's biggest failing is turning two excellent starting goaltender in to magic beans. Far and away. And then signing Ryan Miller to a huge contract right as he was about to fall off a cliff performance wise. Can we keep this up? I love talking about how awful the Canucks are going to be for the next several seasons. It's a nice distraction from how fucking brutal the Oilers have been.

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It's true, they're fucked. There is no top line talent in the pipeline to replace the Sedins. They even just recently traded McCann and Shinkaruk away, who were the only hopes of reaching top line player status (even if they were not likely to reach that level). That's why I want the team to crash and burn this year, so everyone in management (and ideally ownership) gets cleared out. Trevor Linden will likely survive the purge because he's a legend, but he's mostly a PR figurehead anyways. I can't believe how all those former Oiler management types simply got promoted after all those years of futility.

Unfortunately, when the NHL changed the rules of the long contracts like Luo's, that screwed his value right there. Also, the fact that they pissed Luo off completely, like Torts in all his arrogance starting Lack in the Winter Classic game. The value back for Schneider wasn't awful (9th overall pick - Bo Horvat), it would have been nicer to get more, but really only Varlamov received more if you look at goalie trades (1st and 2nd).

I hated the Miller signing when it happened. In fact the only FA signing I've liked by Benning that I can recall was the Vrbata one, and then he screwed it up anyways.

Pretty surprised Vesey went with the Rangers. AV isn't exactly known for playing rookies and they're pretty deep at wing, unless they plan on moving someone? It's not like they have a couple of star centers to play with either.

Haka said:

You're seriously blaming management for giving the best players we've ever had NTC's? We wouldn't have likely resigned them without them. Star veteran players get NTC's, you have to accept that. And the Sedins are still good and easily our best players. I don't see why you guys are fixated on this, do you want to be like the Oilers? How well has that worked, having no decent veterans to shoulder the load for the young guys coming in?

Seriously, I'm critical of management in many ways but this is overboard. Sedins are underrated even by their own team.



Quinn was good, no doubt. But he was also the reason for Bure leaving, as well as he completely fumbled getting Gretzky, and signed Messier instead, which I don't think anyone wants to talk about. That 94 team is so popular too because they were a Cinderella team essentially. The 2011 team was a powerhouse, back to back president's trophy winners.

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"blaming" might be the wrong word. But to say it's on the Sedins for not waiving their NTC is silly. They were given NTC, it's their right to exercise them or not. The responsible party for giving them NTC was management, however you want to qualify it. They are responsible. That's why a couple years back when all the huge deals had NTC or worse NMC's people were like "this is going to bite some teams in the ass HARD in a couple years". Whether or not they had to give NTC to keep the contract offers competitive is another issue entirely. It's not like they can look at the twins and be like "hey guys, I know we gave you NTC, but that was just so signed long term deals here and didn't leave the franchise...so you should just waive them when we ask you to".

The simple fact is there are very few star player contracts who don't get a NTC, let alone franchise icon types like the Sedins were/are.

In fact I can't think of a star player who doesn't have one. If you don't hand them out you're unlikely to retain any of your star guys.

Eberle/Hall/RNH all didn't get NTC when they got their big extensions. Looking back it's kind of funny how many commentators shit all over the Oilers for those contracts, but they basically ended up being templates for every other young star that came after them. And they're pretty damn good value, in hindsight, especially given that there's no NTC's.

Hilarious watching Arizona hoover up shit contracts and young prospects. They're going to be a very good team in pretty short order. Just need a goalie. Smith's terrible and the jury is out on Domingue.

I don't think those guys were eligible to get NTC's when they signed those.

Note: a player is not eligible for a NMC or NTC in their contract until they are eligible for Group 3 Unrestricted Free Agency (7 accrued seasons or 27 years of age). A player can sign a contract that has a NMC or NTC take effect partway through the contract at the time they would have otherwise become eligible for Group 3 Unrestricted Free Agency.

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- General Fanager

Ah, I see. They could have had NTC/NMC's for the last year or two of their contracts, at most. I don't recall how many UFA years each extension covered.

Haka said:

Pretty surprised Vesey went with the Rangers. AV isn't exactly known for playing rookies and they're pretty deep at wing, unless they plan on moving someone? It's not like they have a couple of star centers to play with either.

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I never even entertained the idea until the rumors started flooding in during the days prior. The allure of being young, wealthy and living in NYC cannot be overstated but we have a few young Boston guys in our roster who were bending his ear for sure. Apparently he's close with Drury as well and that played a big part.

Gorton quietly had himself a nice off season. Got Grabner, Jooris and Gerbe on cheap contracts. Got a younger top 6C with a higher ceiling dealing Brassard for Zibenijad(??) AND traded up in draft picks. Got Pavel Buchnevic locked up whom was on pace with Kuznetzof/Tarasenko/Panarin at their age in the KHL and just yesterday we snatched up Pirri on a bargain contract.

Problem is, there's a huge logjam on our bottom 6 fowards right now. The obvious dominoe to fall next would likely be Nash and/or Fast for some much needed help on the blue line, but I don't expect to see that until around January. For a team that hasn't had a 1st round pick in a few drafts we certainly have plenty of young talented fowards RIGHT NOW. Make no mistake, the pool is shallow as fuck, but we have more elbow room to restock the pond.

Expectations for being competetive aren't too high, but looking forward to watching some of these kids develop all the same. Can't be any worse than last season after all.

Haka said:

The simple fact is there are very few star player contracts who don't get a NTC, let alone franchise icon types like the Sedins were/are.

In fact I can't think of a star player who doesn't have one. If you don't hand them out you're unlikely to retain any of your star guys.

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The bigger question was whether they'd be long term icons, and many people had doubts (and were proven right). They may still be special up there, but around the league as a whole they're merely above average to very good players now (although without much help). Also there's a big difference between a No Trade Clause (NTC) and a No Movement Clause (NMC). NMC's like what the Sedin's have means you can't even try to stash them in the minors to hide their salaries, let alone trade them to any other team without their say so. Many guys who only have NTC's will also not have FULL NTC's, it'll just be a list of like 5 or 10 teams that they get to select at the start of each year that they cannot be traded to without their permission. For reference, the Capitals don't have ANYONE with a NMC, including Ovechkin and Backstrom. Ovechkin has a NTC, but he can only list up to 10 teams he wouldn't accept a trade to (unless he agreed to it of course). Backstrom also has a NTC, but specific details aren't known.

Now I'm not saying it's the norm for a team to not have a guy or a couple guys with NMC, but there are plenty of examples of stars who don't have them in their deals. As far as the twins go, the Canucks knew they are basically a package deal as well, and I'd bet even if they could get one to agree to move, they would try to force the team to trade for both guys because otherwise they wouldn't go. They knew all this going in, and still handed out the NMC's.