Overwatch

Cybsled

Cybsled

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I don't buy partial premades having much of an impact in the scheme of things. People either mesh well together or they don't. When you PUG stuff like this, it will always be luck of the draw as to whether or not you get hanzo players or "holy shit, it's like we have a hive mind!!!".
 
Eidal

Eidal

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It bears repeating: at least 45 percent of your games will be auto-wins regardless of how good or how shitty you play. Another 45 percent will be auto-losses despite your best efforts. That remaining 10 percent -- those are the flex games where heroics on your part might win you the game. Those games allow those that deserve it to climb the ladder. Gotta be able to play through your auto-losses and not go on raging monkey tilt so that when a flex game comes up you can be the superstar the team needs.
 
Ravishing

Ravishing

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Eidal_sl said:
Neither do most people I played with at rank 57. Granted, I only played 20 or so comp games so who knows. Are you guys saying its common in your experience to have all 5 strangers up and following voice calls? I find that hard to believe.

Fawe, your anecdote is fine but where are the accompanying "I got put with a pre-made who never said a word to me but they were well-coordinated and we won handily." anecdotes? Are you implying that its more likely to lose with a pre-made on your team? Or just that its less fun because they don't talk to you and sometimes you lose.
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I'm saying that "pre-mades don't matter, you're just bad", isn't a legit statement. You are implying you can just carry your way through the game regardless of your teammates. I'm saying the pre-made can have a lot of influence on whether you win or not.

Even Seagull stopped streaming once his premade people had to log off because he didn't want to lose a game when he's 1-2 wins from 80. This game can't be carried very easily by 1 person. It's a team game. Yes, some games can be carried, but if it's an even matchup then you need coordination/teamwork usually.

Edit: This topic relates a bit to what we talked about before on ranking up. If you play long enough and you do well enough, you should be able to affect how you rank up. I completely agree that only you are to blame for where you end up, but there are going to be games that are just guaranteed losses.

And of course if it's 5-man premades, 1 solo guy will be on the winning side, and 1 solo guy on the losing side, and hopefully by playing long enough the solo guys get to be on winning and losing sides about equally so that it's a wash. Dynamic Queue is still a strange beast that people are just figuring out, both in this game and League of Legends. There are major impacts to the rankings by allowing these premades.

For example, you can get a bunch of individuals at a much higher rank then they should be simply because they are carried by their premades, then when these people play Solo they actually are placed in teams where they shouldn't belong. Dynamic Queue is one reason LoL has been declining (along with age and other factors) but I think OW is getting a pass on it simply because the game is still fresh and nobody knows anything different atm since the game launched like this.
 
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skrala

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Fawe_sl said:
I'm saying that "pre-mades don't matter, you're just bad", isn't a legit statement. You are implying you can just carry your way through the game regardless of your teammates. I'm saying the pre-made can have a lot of influence on whether you win or not.
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I don't think he's implying that you should be able to carry or you're bad, rather that you're just as likely to get a premade that carries you to a win, only people are far less likely to bring that scenario up.

These are wise words:

It bears repeating: at least 45 percent of your games will be auto-wins regardless of how good or how shitty you play. Another 45 percent will be auto-losses despite your best efforts. That remaining 10 percent -- those are the flex games where heroics on your part might win you the game. Those games allow those that deserve it to climb the ladder. Gotta be able to play through your auto-losses and not go on raging monkey tilt so that when a flex game comes up you can be the superstar the team needs.
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I read something similar about LoL a long time ago and it definitely helped me put ranked play into perspective. There are a lot of games you're going to lose no matter how well you play, if you can't deal with that you're not going to have a good time.
 
Eidal

Eidal

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Fawe_sl said:
I'm saying that "pre-mades don't matter, you're just bad", isn't a legit statement. You are implying you can just carry your way through the game regardless of your teammates. I'm saying the pre-made can have a lot of influence on whether you win or not.

Even Seagull stopped streaming once his premade people had to log off because he didn't want to lose a game when he's 1-2 wins from 80. This game can't be carried very easily by 1 person. It's a team game. Yes, some games can be carried, but if it's an even matchup then you need coordination/teamwork usually.
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It would absolutely improve my solo-queue experience if I only played against solo-queue players; but that isn't the game we have right now. That being said --statistically, how is there any difference between getting some godly premade on my team and winning, getting some shit premade on my team and losing, and vice versa for the enemy team.The only rational argument I can see here is that a premade is less inclined to use ingame voice, but frankly I've only seen about 5 percent of teams use it in the first place and not to much benefit.

You've fixated on carrying for years when you discuss LoL and its a terrible way to look at these games. The implication being that you'll carry your idiot teammates to victory -- the same idiot teammates who share a rating with you. Your goal for each match should be to play better than the 6th man on the enemy team; that's where you find your advantage. Not beginning with some false assumption that your team will fail and end up on your shoulders.

And sure, Fawe, let's compare the top .000001 percentile and how he's looking for every advantage to climb against the best in the country to the <50 rank guys stuck in elo hell because of *rabble rabble* premades!
 
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skrala

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It's a funny thing to see people who have never played in an MMR system (I know that's not you, Fawe), because a lot of the time it's not a particularly fun way to play games unless you approach it in a very specific way.

I have legit bronze friends in league who are convinced they're diamond level players with bad luck, so I guess there are plenty who never really learn.
 
Eidal

Eidal

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Skrala_sl said:
It's a funny thing to see people who have never played in an MMR system (I know that's not you, Fawe), because a lot of the time it's not a particularly fun way to play games unless you approach it in a very specific way.

I have legit bronze friends in league who are convinced they're diamond level players with bad luck, so I guess there are plenty who never really learn.
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Noodle was upset last week because it was "unsatisfying to play for a few hours and not gain any rank at all." Come on Bliz, wtf, fix this leveling curve so we can hit 100 and raid.

I would love to see a poll, but I'm sure that 90 percent of the LoL ladder all believe they ought to be higher ranked than they are. It reminds me in a way of poker, and how people always remember when they were unlucky but rarely remember their luck. The elo hell crowd remember all the times their teammates failed them, that's for sure.
 
Ravishing

Ravishing

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We're saying the same things so stop flipping out.

Long-term, you are responsible for yourself.

Short-term, there will be games you 100% lose, or win, because of teammates.

I've said this shit the entire time. People are allowed to bitch if they want to let off some steam because they get paired with some shitty premade, it's just venting.
 
Noodleface

Noodleface

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Eidal_sl said:
Noodle was upset last week because it was "unsatisfying to play for a few hours and not gain any rank at all." Come on Bliz, wtf, fix this leveling curve so we can hit 100 and raid.

I would love to see a poll, but I'm sure that 90 percent of the LoL ladder all believe they ought to be higher ranked than they are. It reminds me in a way of poker, and how people always remember when they were unlucky but rarely remember their luck. The elo hell crowd remember all the times their teammates failed them, that's for sure.
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And guess the fuck what? I was right. KOTH WAS BUGGED. LEAVERS IS CRAP.

I was losing more rank than I was gaining. It was unsatisfying so I stopped playing rank until they fix their shit.

How fun is it to play a KOTH map and gain 10% of a rank when you win but drop 50-100% of a rank when you lose? I get it, they fixed it, but how did they even get through?

The leaver stuff is just a bad design decision. I actually wonder if the people that designed it had actually played a ranked game before, probably not. Punish the leaver, not the teams.

It's all moot anyways, I don't play comp - rarely if anything. I have a much more fun time just playing quick play.
 
Valderen

Valderen

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I've said before that I feel I am at the ranking I belong to...which seems to be around 40 and I'm fine with that. Of course I'd like to rank up and that's normal.

As for pre-made affecting the results or not, well after 200 competitive games I will say with a certain degree of certainty that yes they can have a huge impact. Only starting with 4+ people or against a group that doesn't have at least 4. I don't find that 3 people pre-made have a huge impact on the results. When you are with a pre-made of 4+ or against one, I find that they win the vast majority of the time, not all the time but the vast majority of it. But that's my personal opinion with 200 games played so far.

I'm not sure how it is over 50 ranking, but at 40 and below...leavers are are a huge problems. I don't remember who mentioned it, I think it was Force Gaming but it was something about ELO hell that happens at low ranking because of the huge amount of leavers which makes it very hard to climb out of low level ranking. I have over 200 competitive games played and there is a leaver at least in 1/4 of them easily. Seeing that would mean at least 50 of my games have leaver and I have about 50% win rate, so that's 25 games where I got 1/20th of the ranked XP instead of the regular XP. It makes climbing extremely hard. As I said, I'm not sure how bad the leaver problem is over 50, Force Gaming was saying it was not as much of a problem though. I want to stress out that I am not saying it's the only reason I'm stuck there, I do feel it's more or less where I feel I belong.
 
Ravishing

Ravishing

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What I find funny is this whole "rant" from Eidal started because someone wanted to know where you see the premades... nobody was even complaining.
 
Eidal

Eidal

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Noodleface_sl said:
And guess the fuck what? I was right. KOTH WAS BUGGED. LEAVERS IS CRAP.

I was losing more rank than I was gaining. It was unsatisfying so I stopped playing rank until they fix their shit.
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I completely agree with you here. Their leaver policy is ridiculous. My assumption is that it's zero-sum: games being worth minimal MMR shouldn't favor any specific player... but it would drastically increase discovery time of true MMR. Plus, it's just unsatisfying. May as well go with a CSGO system where you don't see shit about rank until it changes.

Fawe, I'm sorry my posts complaining about complainers are sometimes inappropriately applied... it's a tough job arguing with people on the internetbeing wrongand sometimes even the best of us make mistakes.
 
Noodleface

Noodleface

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I'll admit I went overboard with the complaining, but it's good to know shit was actually bugged.

As for my rank and thinking I should be above it - I have no idea where I should be. I'm not one of those people that think they're great at this game - usually I'm fairly terrible but quite often I have games where I play beautifully. I'd attribute that mostly to having a good team that is playing off eachother's strengths rather than my singular skill.
 
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Kharza-kzad_sl

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It is sort of like playing slots. The short term peaks & lows are the volatility, but after x million spins you are guaranteed to win y% (whatever the pay table is set to).

I saw a post where they think they fixed the leaver stuff, so I guess that's why it hasn't really been fixed.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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I've had some different experiences with premades than a lot of you guys I guess.

I've found the most success, by far, in small 2 or 3 person groups. A 3 person group of friends around the same skill level does a few things. First, you'll ensure key heros get played when they're needed. Second, you take a lot of randomness out of the quality of your group, getting a dice roll of just 3 rando-tards rather than 5. And finally, you don't get matched up against other 4-6 team premades, which is really, on average, where you're going to find the most coordinated teams.

A pure solo queue might be the most accurate representation of your individual skill, but if you want to power up the ranks, I really think a small group is the way to go.
 
Ravishing

Ravishing

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The discussion has been about getting paired with premades. A premade has a larger influence on the game so as a solo player you're basically at the mercy of the premade you're paired with. Intentionally playing as a premade is same deal, you have a larger influence, so if you surround yourself with a group of good players you'll be able to win more, theoretically. Pre-release I had said that 2-3 player premades would be the sweet spot, too.
 
skribble

skribble

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Id be fine if they did away with MMR in quickplay, I miss the days of quake where youd just join a server, and MMR wasnt a thing and everyone was flung together. Might have a surefour on the team, might have a surefour on the other team, you might be the surefour that game. The 50% win loss means their system works, but it does not feel fun playing under. Very artificial and grindy, like all their other games.

The skill/MMR system is probably fine for competitive games, though it currently feels very unrewarding to play.

Personally speaking I find the carry potential in this game less than traditional FPS, but better than HOTS/LOL. The large influence of swaps/counters does annoy me though, since people seem to be so static sometimes and get into the mindset that switching off a hero is admitting defeat almost, when its not like that at all.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

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Fawe_sl said:
The discussion has been about getting paired with premades. A premade has a larger influence on the game so as a solo player you're basically at the mercy of the premade you're paired with. Intentionally playing as a premade is same deal, you have a larger influence, so if you surround yourself with a group of good players you'll be able to win more, theoretically. Pre-release I had said that 2-3 player premades would be the sweet spot, too.
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Ah sorry. Misunderstood. Someone up above said they didn't notice the smaller premades having much of an impact on their games and I was just stating otherwise.
 
Ravishing

Ravishing

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Only way the game could be better is if we can get 12+ person 24/7 lobbies and bigger maps or custom maps.... ie: TF2 lobbies/maps/team sizes

Won't ever happen though.


skribble_sl said:
Personally speaking I find the carry potential in this game less than traditional FPS, but better than HOTS/LOL.
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Carry potential is so much worse than LoL or any MOBA since there are no items/levels to give you advantage over your opponents.
 
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