Burren
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Literally every other "major" MP competitive game has more balance than Blizzard products. I love Blizz too man, but let's be honest here...
Overwatch
- Thread starter Caliane
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xzi
Mouthbreather
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IIRC Tigole did an interview a long time ago talking about how much they enjoy CS:GO and I could very easily see a ranking/MM system similar to CS:GO be put in this game and it work fine. On top of that I can totally see leagues pick up this game easily and enforce their own ruleset, plus it's even better for them since they won't have to host the servers.
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That's how it works, if you wait the timer, it switches sides with the same players. Because there's a ton of people leaving though it sometimes switches people to the other team and what not I don't know how it works, but it's messy at times.
Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
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There's more to balance than Champion win percentages in MOBA games. As Draegen said, Azir is a contested pick professionally. There's also Item & World balance. Starcraft only needs to look at the 3 races, no neutral items or global objectives to worry about.
Regarding Overwatch, looks like balance should be easy compared to a MOBA. It's just hero abilities and maps. Really shouldn't be hard at all.
Regarding Overwatch, looks like balance should be easy compared to a MOBA. It's just hero abilities and maps. Really shouldn't be hard at all.
There will need to be a unified rule set. If different leagues enforce rules differently it will be impossible to get consistent practice. Like if you're practicing for DreamHack and they allow class stacking but the opponents are scrimming for Blizzcon and they ban class stacking those two teams will not be able to practice together.
Needless
Toe Sucker
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Ahh okay that makes sense.. seems people leave too often to make it work out when i play
oh, and i entirely think you should be limited to 1 hero type per team at the very least. It's all fun and games until you get hit by 3 phara ults at once with no zenyatta ult to counter it or whatever lol
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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Now way dude, it is totally true. Just look at StarCraft 2 with three whole races to choose from versus the 110 heroes in Dota 2 played by 10 people in like 8 quadrillion combinations. It is totally the same beast.
Nothing is easy when it comes to PVP balance, but it should be easier due to less variables because there is no scaling of abilities.
What a dumb statement. If you like I can say there are 3 races in SC2. Each race has 15 units. Each player can control 200 supply. Thats so many different combinations and different variations of army how do they even manage to balance with all those combinations!
xzi
Mouthbreather
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There will be a go-to ruleset for everyone, yes, but needing a unified ruleset isn't really true and people catch on extremely easy.
I'll use TF2 as an example since I did play it competitively:
6v6 rules in ESEA are mostly limited to 2 classes per team at any given time except demo/med/heavy(at the time) are limited to one per team.
6v6 rules in CEVO very early on was similar but you could run 2 demos, which drastically changed the flow of the game.
7v7 you were allowed 2 medics at a time.
9v9 highlander you were pushed into one class each per team
All of these gametypes were popular for quite a while until CEVO tanked for unrelated reasons and more people got interested in 6v6. Highlander teams are still very active and playing. People generally stick to THEIR league and people that play highlander are very aware there is very little reward for participating vs if you just played 6's instead. More official events, such as Dreamhack or ESL, or even just leagues like ESEA operate under the same rules as the "official" rules in games like CS:GO. You also have to keep in mind a vast majority of competitive players will never make it to these tournaments either. Allowing league diversity is good for that reason alone.
Ok super balance man how would you determine the overall balance of a MOBA game which is by definition of the genre extremely reflective if not calling out individual hero win rates? Competitive pick/ban rate? Overall representation of hero pool in competitive environment? Rate and severity of balancing?
A MOBA is most balance when you have a rich and varied ban/pick rate on many champions across different roles and there isn't a singular character that basically guarantees a victory every time (without being fixed in a short time period). I think DOTA and League have this for the most part. There have been ebbs and flows on how big that ban/pick rate was but it's been pretty varied over the seasons. This last season you saw the largest varied pool ever (I think?).
I also think popularity and the amount of iteration it goes through really has a factor to to proving that balance. The more people you have playing, the more imbalance comes to the forefront.
I also think popularity and the amount of iteration it goes through really has a factor to to proving that balance. The more people you have playing, the more imbalance comes to the forefront.
TI5 I think maybe only 5 or so heroes were never pick/banned. But the top pick/bans were mostly consistent.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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No idea man, but all or a combination of those sound like great places to start, you should start a newsletter. I would definitely subscribe.
The point was the game types are so fundamentally different that trying to structure the argument using them against each other was ridiculous. While win rates of PvT, or TvZ, etc... may be indicative of good balance in SC2 (which I have no idea, honestly), it doesn't at all compare to what a hero win rate in LoL or Dota says about game balance.
I wish there were more great RTS out there to compare within the genre. The fact there isn't probably says a lot about just how good Blizzard is at and how difficult it is. I'd say both Riot and Valve do a great job though. The recent Dota patch has been great.
edit: was just thinking back and it made me laugh thinking about some of the old Capcom balance throughout SFIV and stuff with UMvC or Netherealm in MK. It may be hard to tell when these games are really balanced, but when they're broken it is pretty funny but less interesting to watch
The point was the game types are so fundamentally different that trying to structure the argument using them against each other was ridiculous. While win rates of PvT, or TvZ, etc... may be indicative of good balance in SC2 (which I have no idea, honestly), it doesn't at all compare to what a hero win rate in LoL or Dota says about game balance.
I wish there were more great RTS out there to compare within the genre. The fact there isn't probably says a lot about just how good Blizzard is at and how difficult it is. I'd say both Riot and Valve do a great job though. The recent Dota patch has been great.
edit: was just thinking back and it made me laugh thinking about some of the old Capcom balance throughout SFIV and stuff with UMvC or Netherealm in MK. It may be hard to tell when these games are really balanced, but when they're broken it is pretty funny but less interesting to watch
I wasn't even trying to imply Riot or Valve are bad at balance. I was just defending Blizzard from people saying they're terrible at balance. Something I think is false. I also think since Blizzard has more games under their belt (with varying levels of balance -- but mostly good) that makes them the standard where Riot and Valve only have a single MOBA. And like I said CSGO is hard to say it is "balanced" but it pretty much the same guns used. And if you try to extrapolate the gun usage to class usage in a game like this you'd only see the same few heroes (which I also know is not really a fair comparison.)