Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Convo_sl said:

Salim from last night. Starts around 2:37. Great listen

http://173.193.205.96:2197/ondemand/...021%202014.mp3

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Link doesn't work for me, is there another place I can get this?

sakkath_sl said:

Link doesn't work for me, is there another place I can get this?

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K-TAM Radio

scroll down a bit.. on the right is the ondemand section. should be second from top dated 4/21/14

Elidroth_sl said:

Wrong. 100% wrong. Most of the people on this team had been laid off from either SOE or Trion and their severance pay had run out. Don't speak authoritatively about things of which you know nothing.

Criticism about things which DID happen and are known as fact is fine. But don't make up shit just so you can look like a forum thug.

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You claim to know a lot but never really discuss exactly how, why or what this knowledge you have is. If they were working solely on this project why is there nothing to show? Either they are naive and incompetent, or they were working on other projects and barely paying attention to this one. I am speaking as a professional developer who is familiar with what can and can't be done in this timeframe. If they were devoting all their attention and wiles to this project it would have stood a chance, they weren't. They were bilking other people's money. All of them. It doesn't matter if that was their intention or not it's what was happening. They aren't hapless victims. These people were all industry veterans, they have no excuse for the lack of project documentation, game design documents or anything concrete.

If I went to Kickstarter and tried to fund an idea that was barely even an idea and then lied about what I had and what I planned to do with the money it would be a misappropriation of trust and funding. And if I sat there and let my "leader" perpetuate those lies and fabricate even further after that KS failed with a goddamn paid forum structure I'd be just as responsible as the man I was allowing to do all that. That's what happened here. Unless you defend this team's approach to making this "game".

I'm not denying they were laid off. I am not denying they didn't have full time corporate positions, but in this space, in this day and age, you do not need full time employment to contract work or get paid as a consultant for multiple projects at once and if they were putting all their eggs in this one basket they weren't being very smart nor were they willing to whistleblow until after they realized they weren't going to be able to take money from people under the guise of "working on your dream game"

Khane_sl said:

You claim to know a lot but never really discuss exactly how, why or what this knowledge you have is.

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^^^Doug Cronkhite (ElidrothRenato) on Twitter

pointyboot_sl said:

^^^Doug Cronkhite (ElidrothRenato) on Twitter

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I know who he is, most people here do. We want to know what he knows about Pantheon and its team and their intentions. I doubt he'll offer anything concrete, mostly out of professional courtesy. But the skeptics here knew from the second the KS launched they were all blowing smoke up our ass. And all these doe eyed innocent team members had a professional responsibility to shed light on what was really happening to the people they were taking money from the second those paid forums went up, yet they waited until the money dried up to relay that knowledge. They knew what was going on and they didn't step away until they had their scapegoat. They gave information in interviews after the fact.

Khane_sl said:

I know who he is, most people here do. We want to know what he knows about Pantheon and its team and their intentions. I doubt he'll offer anything concrete, mostly out of professional courtesy. But the skeptics here knew from the second the KS launched they were all blowing smoke up our ass. And all these doe eyed innocent team members had a professional responsibility to shed light on what was really happening to the people they were taking money from the second those paid forums went up, yet they waited until the money dried up to relay that knowledge. They knew what was going on and they didn't step away until they had their scapegoat. They gave information in interviews after the fact.

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I'm not so sure there is an easy answer. I certainly don't feel the way you do about the team. They are perfectly capable under the right circumstances. They were more guilty for allowing Brad to exaggerate about where the game was in the process. It stumbled them out of the gate. I know there were private conversations, but it would force me to out Devs. I'll just say, not everyone agreed with the ks approach and gave solid advice that was later echoed here. When money came in, there was a 3 year development cycle that began and tasks were assigned with that timeline in mind. I won't pretend to know how all this works with mmo development.. I'll just say after all of the info.. Id support this core dev team. you guys really should listen to sal explain all this in the link I dropped a few posts back. It may not change your minds, but it's worth a listen and does provide insight to some of the questions raised.

I don't know them so I don't if they are incompetent or were willing participants, but it's one or the other and I just don't see why they are getting a free pass and pity and sorrow for this fiasco. I mean, you just said that a true development cycle started after the KS and after they started getting funding from the forums.

How was that not started before the KS, or at least even during it when we were led to believe they were working hard the whole time?

Kirun_sl said:

Nailed it.

Did Brad have nothing but ill intent when coming into the project? Was it nothing more than a malicious plot? Probably not. However, he sought to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possibly, while simultaneously doing as little work as possible. I refuse to believe that a guy with 15+ years of industry experience is genuinely that "inept". Brad knowsexactlywhat he's doing.

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make as much money as possible while doing as little work as possible? that's the mother fucking american dream! i don't blame him one bit for that. had they done just the tiniest bit of work on the actual game, like making a demo for the kickstarter, this thing would probably have gotten over the $800,000 they were looking for and who knows what would have happened from there? maybe, just maybe, they would have actually gotten this thing off the ground. i will say this: if brad wants a job where he collects a steady paycheck and does next to nothing of actual work, i'm sure PENNDOT is hiring...

Khane_sl said:

You claim to know a lot but never really discuss exactly how, why or what this knowledge you have is.

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The simplest answer is because I'm friends with almost everyone on the team, and I have information from them that wasn't public knowledge. But working for SOE, they couldn't go into a lot of detail with me, because that would represent a serious conflict of interest. The guys that were laid off from SOE that were on that team got a nice severance, but that wouldn't last forever, and was running out for sure.

Before the KS launched, I talked with Brad a lot about general things. Nothing game design specific. He asked me what I thought of their money target for the KS, and I told him straight out that asking for 800k was going to look silly. EVERYONE knows you can't actually make a game for 800k. He fully believed they could operate much in the same way Chris Roberts did with Star Citizen, where they could raise initial capital via KS, and then take the crowd-funding further afterwards. It wasn't beyond realistic IF the KS delivered. We know what happened there.

So the KS fails to fund, but the guys on the team feel they have a solid concept working, and the website funding approach goes forward. I believe they intended all along to take that money and develop the prototype to shop to investors. I'd be very surprised if there isn't a LOT of design documentation somewhere. I've worked with Salim long enough over the years to know he doesn't skimp on docs. The fact that they didn't show you design docs isn't unusual. No game company is going to publish their internal design documentation. I don't know why you'd expect them to do so?

I'm going to strongly disagree with you on one very specific point. I think there is a HUGE difference between taking people's money with intent to develop something but failing, and bilking people for money with no intent to develop. They both fail to deliver, but one is something just not working out, and the other is plain dishonest. I don't believe this was intended to be a straight money grab.


As for what happened at the end, I can only speculate. Professionalism prevents me from saying much. It would look really poor for me to pile on honestly. Most of the guys on that team are my friends so it REALLY sucks to see things devolve to this state.

You should also consider that literally hundreds of games fail to publish every year. Making games is hard. Making an MMO is the hardest kind of game to make. Just last week, we saw one of the most successful companies out there (CCP) shut down World of Darkness.

Well thank you for that.

Khane_sl said:

I don't know them so I don't if they are incompetent or were willing participants, but it's one or the other and I just don't see why they are getting a free pass and pity and sorrow for this fiasco. I mean, you just said that a true development cycle started after the KS and after they started getting funding from the forums.

How was that not started before the KS, or at least even during it when we were led to believe they were working hard the whole time?

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We were certainly misled during the ks. People might be saying these guys were innocent, but I know when given the opportunity, they certainly have took blame on themselves. Looking back, they probably do wish they could change some things, but I can't speak for them. All I can say is I'd fully support those guys going forward. I think they knew from the KS that things were not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But I truly believe these guys had every intention of making a game. A great game. It's a tough spot to be in.. What do you do when you're unemployed and this project has the potential of some steady work? It's not an easy situation to be in. I'd imagine you'd look past certain things in the moment but when reality hits, probably kick yourself after. I'm betting some of them are.

Edit..Elidroth beat me to it and summed it up better.

Well I'll tell you what I wouldn't do if I were in their position (unemployed with not much in savings, if that's true). I wouldn't go headlong into a pipe dream with no design document or development plan for a niche game spearheaded by someone with Brad's checkered past.

I still believe they were bilking money, whether they felt they needed to because they were in a bind is a moot point to me. And I cannot imagine why these people didn't hit the road after the KS failed. I really can't. It doesn't really matter what's said, I believe they played an important role in disguising what was really going on and allowed people to continue to make contributions without speaking up.

Convo_sl said:

I'm not so sure there is an easy answer. I certainly don't feel the way you do about the team. They are perfectly capable under the right circumstances. They were more guilty for allowing Brad to exaggerate about where the game was in the process. It stumbled them out of the gate. I know there were private conversations, but it would force me to out Devs. I'll just say, not everyone agreed with the ks approach and gave solid advice that was later echoed here. When money came in, there was a 3 year development cycle that began and tasks were assigned with that timeline in mind. I won't pretend to know how all this works with mmo development.. I'll just say after all of the info.. Id support this core dev team. you guys really should listen to sal explain all this in the link I dropped a few posts back. It may not change your minds, but it's worth a listen and does provide insight to some of the questions raised.

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I don't really see how the team is innocent. Regardless of what Brad did, the fact is that they only raised 150k. There is no way you can have a 3-year development cycle with that much money. I think everyone involved in the project is guilty by association, because they should have never pretended like it was possible to make an mmo with 150k. They had to know this was going to happen. The only difference is that if things had gone the deve team's way it would have happened a month or two later.

When they saw how much money to be raised they should have just called it a day.

imijj_sl said:

I don't really see how the team is innocent. Regardless of what Brad did, the fact is that they only raised 150k. There is no way you can have a 3-year development cycle with that much money. I think everyone involved in the project is guilty by association, because they should have never pretended like it was possible to make an mmo with 150k. They had to know this was going to happen. The only difference is that if things had gone the deve team's way it would have happened a month or two later.

When they saw how much money to be raised they should have just called it a day.

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Again, I can't talk for the team. From the outside looking in.. The team felt the prototype needed at least another month before it was ready to be shopped to investors. Brad took the money that would have gotten them most likely 2 more months and back paid himself?! Nobody was expecting the plug to be pulled that soon.

Also.. Keep in mind, by all accounts..there really was an angel investor and it got really close. I think close enough Brad assumed it was going to happen. I don't think there was a huge gap in time from when the investor pulled out and Brad paid himself. I'd love to know..

imijj_sl said:

I don't really see how the team is innocent. Regardless of what Brad did, the fact is that they only raised 150k. There is no way you can have a 3-year development cycle with that much money. I think everyone involved in the project is guilty by association, because they should have never pretended like it was possible to make an mmo with 150k. They had to know this was going to happen. The only difference is that if things had gone the deve team's way it would have happened a month or two later.

When they saw how much money to be raised they should have just called it a day.

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agreed... but cmon.. maybe these guys, who didnt have 15 years experience and the individual ego and self assuredness of a brad, believed a bit like some of the optimists that they would get an investor, or two, three, ten, that would bring their little project to life. nobody expects to have a 3 year dev cycle with 150k, or even 800k. I dont think anyone was that dumb.

granted, I dont have the inside perspective that Convo or Elidroth have, but seriously... can you not imagine that some of the team actually believed in their project? and in their leader to bring them closer to the finish line?

after all, it's the leader's job to pull that together.. not theirs. they do the grind work. now that's where we hang up, as seemingly not much grind work was done, or has been revealed to us frothing masses

Brad said in the most recent Boogie interview the game would cost 10-12 million to make. Why wasn't this mentioned in the Kickstarter? Why wasn't this presented at all? The biggest stretch goal was at 5 million, which claimed they would allow you to make your own modifiable Pantheon.

Kirun_sl said:

That wonderment instilled within you wasn't due to the vast, open world of EQ. It was because you had never experienced anything like that before. It was likely your first foray into an online world(or at least one of that scale), maybe even your first foray into a 3D world.That'swhere your sense of awe and wonderment came from. The social element(like I said, graphical Facebook of its generation)was the cherry on top. Trust me, if another online game comes out, drops you in the middle of an area like GFay, gives you the basics, and says.."Now, explore!" - how quickly do you think you're going to figure it out? Probably in half the time(likely less)than it took in EQ. How quickly is your sense of awe and amazement going to evaporate? Pretty quickly. Why? Because you've seen this all before. You understand the basic concepts now of needing a light source, needing groupmates - the fundamental properties which govern MMOs are no longer foreign to you.

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I'm not disagreeing with you, much of EQs charm, even that such a buggy game could be so successful are a product of a once in a life time event, but consider how much fun such a game would still be given the current MMO climate.

My time on EQ lasted a good three years from early 2000 to 2003, while I'm mostly over MMOs, spending time in an EQ-like one again for even half that time or a good year would be worth it. Since then I've only spent a few months playing successive MMOs and that had more to do with the fact that they were new/the best thing around at the time to dick around with. Actually, since then, I've played EQemu servers more than I've played other MMOs in total and my time on VZTZ was still vastly more enjoyable than anything I experienced since the first couple of months of WoW when the game was more appropriately classified as an EQ clone.