Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Quineloe

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,978
4,464
This thread is epic. The team is just as guilty as brad. They were just mad that Brad took more of the money. They all did about a days work or less. Not a SINGLE person busted their ass to make a game or they would have way more to show for 6 (snickers) months of work.

Everyone of them should be embarrassed and hang their heads in shame for not returning what little money they made back to the pledgers.

They all took money they did not deserve.
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Spot on, none of them did any work, none of them ever thought this game was going to happen, because it was clear as day from the bare minimum of progress they had to show when the KS started, when the KS ended and whatever came after that.

They mad because they didn't make bank on this and now their names are tainted.
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
The only thing that makes me think they're not scumfucks is: When you're out of work and no one is hiring -- it might be a necessary thing to take brad's money. The landlord gives 0 fucks about how much nerdcred you have. I also doubt very much it tainted anyone's name except for Brad.

What are they gonna do? Brag about being part of the Pantheon kickstarter on their resumes? Is the industry SO incestuous that everybody is just gonna know without it being pointed out? If that's true they were superfucked to begin with, and taking 10 grand off a kickstarter scam might actually improve their standing.

There's only 2 of them that seem to have any marketable skills to begin with. I expect those two guys probably did try a little bit until they realized they were the mules and there was no carrot. Which probably happened sometime between Brad pitching the idea to them and the first actual meeting of "the team".
 

iannis

Musty Nester
31,351
17,656
I mean you gotta make your own fucking luck.

You gotta know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

They bluffed on a busted flush. But hey, they didn't raise and the ante wasn't too high.
 
437
0
I'd be very surprised if there isn't a LOT of design documentation somewhere.
I seriously doubt there is any documentation at all. If you watch the Dave and Rob shows and the KTAM shows, the devs always defered to later-decision making any time some specifics came up. We heard nothing, as far as mechanics go, about character generation, leveling, rewards, itemization, task resolution, class abilities, race abilities, what horizontal advancement actually means, spell casting, religion, guilds, brotherhoods, etc. etc. etc. We got a little bit of information about travel, a little bit about death, a very little bit about hero essences, and a decent amount about climatization. But that's it. So many aspects of the game seem completely void of development.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,594
11,937
If you want your new company to get off the ground you need to make sacrifices and scrape by on what you can. These ass holes instead decided to fight over fucking back pay for shit fucking work. Fuck them all. They wanted it easy with full pay for little effort.
 

spronk

FPS noob
23,361
27,219
being in a startup is very, very different than being in a regular company. i'd guess most of these guys are used to the company mentality, where you are told what to do and when you don't have anything to do you just goof off. in a startup everyone wears multiple hats, and there is no such thing as down time, ever. it can become this beautiful thing where communication happens in small little bursts, and everyone just has this natural feeling of what is the most important thing to get done that day. Any good VC/angel investor can tell the difference within 30 minutes of visiting a startup based on how people are working and what has gotten done.

It does require one or two extraordinary leaders who can multitask like AIs and shepherd every single person to make sure the entire company is humming like a ferrari. These qualities are very rare, and most people will fail at it. Its also pretty much impossible for someone who has had a long career to do it right, you basically need someone who is young, doesn't "know better", but has the innate natural talent. The CEO job has fuck all to do with it btw, the CEO job is usually the older guy who looks good in a suit and has tons and tons of business connections which you use for money, getting products, hiring, PR, political connections, etc.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
The simplest answer is because I'm friends with almost everyone on the team, and I have information from them that wasn't public knowledge. But working for SOE, they couldn't go into a lot of detail with me, because that would represent a serious conflict of interest. The guys that were laid off from SOE that were on that team got a nice severance, but that wouldn't last forever, and was running out for sure.

Before the KS launched, I talked with Brad a lot about general things. Nothing game design specific. He asked me what I thought of their money target for the KS, and I told him straight out that asking for 800k was going to look silly. EVERYONE knows you can't actually make a game for 800k. He fully believed they could operate much in the same way Chris Roberts did with Star Citizen, where they could raise initial capital via KS, and then take the crowd-funding further afterwards. It wasn't beyond realistic IF the KS delivered. We know what happened there.

So the KS fails to fund, but the guys on the team feel they have a solid concept working, and the website funding approach goes forward. I believe they intended all along to take that money and develop the prototype to shop to investors. I'd be very surprised if there isn't a LOT of design documentation somewhere. I've worked with Salim long enough over the years to know he doesn't skimp on docs. The fact that they didn't show you design docs isn't unusual. No game company is going to publish their internal design documentation. I don't know why you'd expect them to do so?
Thanks for the feedback, and I appreciate you coming into the lions den.

The only real question I'd like answered is who was leading the technical/development side and why on earth did the team have so few actual programmers versus so many game designers? A startup not streamlined just seems a recipe for disaster.

Also, there has been one homerun kickstarter in Star Citizen. It's tough to think the whole plan was to hit the KS lottery and just resume operations a la Sigil.
 

kanak32_sl

shitlord
56
0
I'm not so sure there is an easy answer. I certainly don't feel the way you do about the team. They are perfectly capable under the right circumstances. They were more guilty for allowing Brad to exaggerate about where the game was in the process. It stumbled them out of the gate. I know there were private conversations, but it would force me to out Devs. I'll just say, not everyone agreed with the ks approach and gave solid advice that was later echoed here. When money came in, there was a 3 year development cycle that began and tasks were assigned with that timeline in mind. I won't pretend to know how all this works with mmo development.. I'll just say after all of the info.. Id support this core dev team. you guys really should listen to sal explain all this in the link I dropped a few posts back. It may not change your minds, but it's worth a listen and does provide insight to some of the questions raised.
That's sentimental and nice and all, but with what evidence are you basing your support on? I get that you like the guys, but they haven't displayed an iota of competence.
 

Gaige

Legal Ephebophile
1,912
116
Convo is the king of second chances though. A couple months ago he was all about Brad. So it makes sense that the team would have to fuck him overagainfor him to see the light.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
That's sentimental and nice and all, but with what evidence are you basing your support on? I get that you like the guys, but they haven't displayed an iota of competence.
There are a lot of factors at play here. Do you have a more pointed question? Do you think guys like Vu, Tony and Sal could be on a team that creates something good under solid leadership? Common sense says yes, since they did at SoE. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here..

@Gecko- Sal was leading the development end. I keep saying it, but you guys really should listen to

http://173.193.205.96:2197/ondemand/...021%202014.mp3
 

Mahes

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
5,256
6,277
Thanks for the feedback, and I appreciate you coming into the lions den.

The only real question I'd like answered is who was leading the technical/development side and why on earth did the team have so few actual programmers versus so many game designers? A startup not streamlined just seems a recipe for disaster.

Also, there has been one homerun kickstarter in Star Citizen. It's tough to think the whole plan was to hit the KS lottery and just resume operations a la Sigil.
Lets not write off "Hex, Shards of Fate" yet. It did 2.7 million and is looking to start closed Beta this week.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
19,241
15,629
So the KS fails to fund, but the guys on the team feel they have a solid concept working, and the website funding approach goes forward. I believe they intended all along to take that money and develop the prototype to shop to investors.
Really? I mean...really? They seriously felt they had a "solid" concept working? There was hardly anything to show, how could they rationalize it to themselves that their concept was "solid", especially after the KS failed to fund?
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
6,458
4,345
There are a lot of factors at play here. Do you have a more pointed question? Do you think guys like Vu, Tony and Sal could be on a team that creates something good under solid leadership? Common sense says yes, since they did at SoE. I don't think I'm going out on a limb here..

@Gecko- Sal was leading the development end. I keep saying it, but you guys really should listen to

http://173.193.205.96:2197/ondemand/...021%202014.mp3
Why is Salim getting all of this praise as a Dev now? Wasn't he universally hated by both Vanguard and the EQ2 communities? His Vanguard fuckups were legendary and in EQ2 DoV he was behind the itemization debacle that just fucked the whole game into boring cut / paste itemization. I can personally attest that this was the biggest reason for me quitting EQ2 once and for all. It was truly and utterly a stupid fucking direction to take the game.
 

Gaige

Legal Ephebophile
1,912
116
Yup never been a fan of his. He completely fucked EQ2 in the ass with his copy pasta itemization bullshit. There is a reason these guys aren't working on MMOs. They've all been let go, some of them multiple times.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
Does this mean I won't be able to play as a dual shield warrior tank... anyways checking in on this thread and told you so...