Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Froggy crown, cloak of the ice bear, smr, Crown of King Tranix, etc. Lots of stuff had resists, just not all resists on a single piece.

kudos_sl said:

what was resist gear in original eq? wedding rings is all i can think of.

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for starters
Totemic Gauntlets - Project 1999 Wiki
Totemic Breastplate - Project 1999 Wiki
Totemic Gauntlets - Project 1999 Wiki

Kirun_sl said:

You're correct, we don't knowexactlyhow much work was/wasn't done. However, we can speculate off of the evidence of "work" that wewereshown, and what wewereshown paints a pretty clear picture that not much work at all was done. If you, they, or anyone else has evidence to the contrary, I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

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We were misled during the KS but the actual dev team was paid for 2 months work. I don't think everyone on the team was working pro bono like Brad mentioned.. That was obvious with the lack of art. Essentially, the game got 2 months of real dev time put into it. There were guys grinding out hours during the KS tho. Certainly Tony, Sal and Vu.

There were also specific tasks being done that just require time, at least I think? For instance, It was Corey's job to flesh out the travel and climate system in game. That's one guy basically doing nothing but those 2 systems. I have no idea how long something like that should take? Can anyone really say? The climate system was going to be a really big part of the game, so I'd imagine it would take time, but it's not something they can show to us. Sal mentioned combat needing at least 2 months of time as well.. Not to mention shit they were doing that I have no info on. I'm just going off what was relayed to us at the time.

I guess yea, they could have Just started world building and we'd have something physical to see, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were making good progress either... if the game was lacking the core systems it needed.

This is all just my perspective on what the devs were doing and why we don't have more to see or rate in regards to progress. My Dev experience is 0, so I could be way off.

Maester Chuk_sl said:

i did, i played 2 months, went from 1 to max and then got bored and quit. i have been back in eq since january. went from 65 to 85 on chuk and went from 56 to 83 on my shadowknight and still have tons of stuff to do and am having fun. the game is not a snail's pace anymore, but its also a lot more interesting than when it started. in classic, you leveled very slowly to 50 then you camp resist gear and hope you can get in a guild that raids naggy/vox/planes. thats it. people have a selective memory on what the old days were like.

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because it took so long to level, you actually enjoyed playing the game. because in new games you can reach max level in three days, is exactly why no one plays them for very long. it's not selective memory. it was a game where leveling up was just as much fun as hitting max level; something just about every other game since has gotten terribly wrong.

Elidroth_sl said:

As I said, this was a VERY small, VERY simple system design doc. The point I was trying to make is game design involves a lot of specific details that the average person doesn't think about when they think "game design". You being in the software industry understand this, so my doc doesn't look like much to you.

The other point is, people are claiming they didn't do anything because apparently they feel the guys at VRI should have published all of their design documents for all to dissect, digest, and pontificate endlessly about. What I'm saying is, nobody outside of the people who were on that team has any idea of how much work was done. You don't, I don't, nor does anyone else who posts on this forum. Anyone outside the team who thinks they "KNOW" how much work was done is basically clueless. I'm not trying to defend everyone, but it drives me nuts when armchair designers think they know everything, when in fact they really have no idea.

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What I do know is they've been "working" on this project since sometime in the middle of last year, and they have basically jack shit to show for it. You can keep saying they wouldn't necessarily show what they've done, but at some point when you see your kickstarter going down in flames and realize you're only raising 150k on your web site, you would probably start showing anything instead of taking on water the way they did.

i will give it that, when you reached that next level the "ding" was one of the best noises you could hear. exploring zones was also really fun. but given all that, if you were a character that did not get grouped often and had trouble soloing it would be a major bummer. i started EQ as a ranger. i spun my wheels for 3 months. got up to maybe lv 18 before i saw how awesome shamans were and rerolled into one. i was level 18 on chuk 2 days after that. i always could get a group and soloed rarely, the thing was i had that option of soloing, something quite a few others did not. as time went on they changed the game so other classes could bring more to the table and if hyou wanted to you could solo. during kunark i switched back to my ranger sometimes with the aid of kunark twink gear from my shaman who was mid 50s. the game was much more manageable after that. could never have been able to do that raw in classic. project99 also realizes this which is why they released kunark with velius soon to be released.

P99 released Kunark because it is part of the original timeline, not to help Rangers.

The idea that everyone should be able to solo is one of the biggest reasons contemporary MMOs are shit.

I'm not going to say we "know" how much as been done but come on, the proof is in the pudding. Anyone can look at a product and tell how much time and effort has went into the given product. However, I don't think the community, at least in the beginning, was complaining about how much was done compared to what was not being done. Most of the frustrations developed when everyone began seeing a lot of poor decisions and processes coming to fruition on the Kickstarter page. It appeared to be dysfunctional very early on and people simply began questioning the "development" as they lost confidence in Brad and the team.

In my opinion, I feel that the majority of this was based on a vision and a lot of this was created simultaneously with one hand ignorant to the other. Even if there was some communication amongst the team, which Salim alluded to some checks & balances and accountability, I would be willing to guess that Brad was oblivious to what was going on. I don't think anyone had a plan on paper to any length or level of sophistication in the beginning and this escalated to a disaster before they realized just how bad it was becoming.. You can't develop the plan and the product at the same time as they did. Sure, sometimes they impact each other in some ways as you begin bringing ideas to life and realizing your realities but, these guys were very openly making this up as they were going along.

imijj_sl said:

P99 released Kunark because it is part of the original timeline, not to help Rangers.

The idea that everyone should be able to solo is one of the biggest reasons contemporary MMOs are shit.

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i used rangers as an example because thats what i played, i dont care about soloing as i said i grouped/raided 99% of the time on my shaman back in classic. what the changes did were give classes like rangers who had trouble finding groups more to bring to the table so they could get a group or if they could not at least solo some so they felt like they were making progress.

imijj_sl said:

P99 released Kunark because it is part of the original timeline, not to help Rangers.

The idea that everyone should be able to solo is one of the biggest reasons contemporary MMOs are shit.

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Here we go again...

I haven't spent years on these boards like most of you, so I haven't had these stupid arguments before, but the second "M" in MMO stands for multiplayer. If you want to play a single player game go play Skyrim.

imijj_sl said:

I haven't spent years on these boards like most of you, so I haven't had these stupid arguments before, but the second "M" in MMO stands for multiplayer. If you want to play a single player game go play Skyrim.

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You have very limited scope if you think an MMORPG can't be made that both effectively incentivizes group-play, that also allows a player to complete certain tasks solo when feasible.

Quit while you are ahead. This never goes well.

this argument has gone on ad nauseam for several years. no, the classes in EQ were definitely not perfect (believe me, i played a wizard so i know what i'm talking about). however, i'd take EQ's class system and all its imperfections over the homogenized bullshit that every MMO gives us today.

i think by the end of velius they had most classes working well. it certainly wasnt homogenized. there were still imbalances, but not so terrible that your class was unplayable because nobody wanted you in their group/guild.

Quaid_sl said:

You have very limited scope if you think an MMORPG can't be made that both effectively incentivizes group-play, that also allows a player to complete certain tasks solo when feasible.

Quit while you are ahead. This never goes well.

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It always goes well. The industry is complete and total crap. Take a look around, look at the state it's in today. We literally have the absolute worst games I've ever fucking seen.

'Certain tasks' sure. Being able to grind exp solo? No. You don't get to to do that unless very inefficiently. Like the man said, if you want to do that, Skyrim's sitting right there with a difficulty slider.

Elidroth is sort of right and sort of wrong. He is very much right that what goes around here on the boards is not design. There is nothing wrong with that in any way, shape or form. This is a place for enthusiasts to discuss their passion for games, and as players the group is very knowledgeable (which is why I post here), but the discussions while interesting in no way constitute design. Designs are much more detailed and intricate, they constitute implementation plans that are pretty specific and include stuff like what Elidroth posted above.

What he is wrong about is how long that documentation should be and how long it should take to write. Designs should be as short as possible while still communicating all the information they need to. The shorter and better laid out they are the more likely they are to be read accurately. As for how long it should take, honestly writing a high level design document to the point where it can start being implemented doesn't take that long.

I can (and have) generated ridiculously complete game designs in 2 weeks. What surprised me most when I moved to small projects is that there isn't that much LESS work to do in the early stages of design, especially systems and database design. This stuff scales really well up, and barely at all down. The core combat design for a game like Pantheon should only take maybe 4 weeks for a single person.

Where I am now the general flow is we discuss the general goals and extremely high level of a game we want to do. I don't work on it for 2-4 weeks, but just sort of let it sit in the back of my head and rattle around. After that I sit down and really start thinking about it and writing up the design, this process takes me maybe 2 weeks to get to the point where there is a nearly complete picture of the game, how it will play, and how the implementation process should proceed.

It honestly doesn't take that long if one person is tasked with writing up a design. What ends up slowing things down is design by committee, that takes god damn forever, and the results are usually worse.

Dumar_sl said:

It always goes well. The industry is complete and total crap. Take a look around, look at the state it's in today. We literally have the absolute worst games I've ever fucking seen.

'Certain tasks' sure. Being able to grind exp solo? No. You don't get to to do that unless very inefficiently. Like the man said, if you want to do that, Skyrim's sitting right there with a difficulty slider.

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I spend 12-16 hour a week grouping with 53 other people on raids.

After that the rest of the time everyone else can just fuck off I'm not grouping with you unless I feel like it.

From a current EQ necromancer but its been that way for 15 years for necromancers.