Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Elidroth_sl · Apr 24, 2014

Denaut_sl said:
What he is wrong about is how long that documentation should be and how long it should take to write. Designs should be as short as possible while still communicating all the information they need to. The shorter and better laid out they are the more likely they are to be read accurately.

LOL.. Fuckin' Peters...

I didn't say documentation SHOULD be long.. I said the doc I put up was very simple for a simple system. More complex systems are generally more extensive docs. Documentation should be as explicit as necessary for the task at hand. There really should be little room for a coder to incorrectly interpret what you want the system to do. How they go about making that happen is up to them. The last thing any designer wants is the kind of coder vigilante crap that we dealt with on VG.

BTW.. you should shave now and then.

Lunis · Apr 24, 2014

Elidroth_sl said:
Who is "we" in this question?

It's very easy for a few people on a forum to get excited about a game they want, but there needs to be more than just a few hundred people interested in something for a company to commit several million dollars to make it. If I was rich, I know the kind of game I would make, but because I was rich, I really wouldn't care if many people actually wanted to play it.

As for what SOE is making.. I don't sit in on those meetings. They're above my pay grade. What I DO know is, the games being worked on have garnered incredible interest from a large base of people, so I don't really think it's fair to say we're making games that people don't want.

I don't think the people that want a group focused PvE game that harkens back to EQ1 while adding some new things is only a few hundred people on this board. Look at how much interest Pantheon got even though it was a total disaster; that type of game doesn't exist anymore... so if one was made the playerbase would be extremely loyal. Which is exactly the opposite of what happens to all these WoW clones, they get good initial numbers and then crumble within 3 months because it's just another MMO.

A game like this wouldn't get a million subscribers, but it could get a 200-300k number that would remain constant for years.

It just seems strange that the company that made the original EQ is so unwilling to make a modern version of it.

Olscratch · Apr 24, 2014

Elidroth_sl said:
LOL.. Fuckin' Peters...

I didn't say documentation SHOULD be long.. I said the doc I put up was very simple for a simple system. More complex systems are generally more extensive docs.

BTW.. you should shave now and then.

Agreed. Dude needs to shave. Been saying that this whole time!

Vandyn · Apr 24, 2014

Luxer_sl said:
I don't think the people that want a group focused PvE game that harkens back to EQ1 while adding some new things is only a few hundred people on this board. Look at how much interest Pantheon got even though it was a total disaster; that type of game doesn't exist anymore... so if one was made the playerbase would be extremely loyal. Which is exactly the opposite of what happens to all these WoW clones, they get good initial numbers and then crumble within 3 months because it's just another MMO.

A game like this wouldn't get a million subscribers, but it could get a 200-300k number that would remain constant for years.

It just seems strange that the company that made the original EQ is so unwilling to make a modern version of it.

Sorry you're wrong. Blame the shitty KS, blame Brad but I can tell you that Pantheon most certainly did not prove this type of game can not only get 200-300k people butmaintainthat sub base. People played EQ and stayed playing EQ because it quite simply was the only option (or one of the very few). You cannot prove Everquest if it came out today would survive with those kind of numbers in today's MMO climate, especially if it was sub based. The only thing Pantheon proved was there are a few thousand fans who would be interested. The only people interested in Pantheon was this board, P99 and maybe one or two others. That's it, everyone one else dismissed it as 'eh, just another MMORPG that's 'hardcore' (whatever that means).

No sane publisher is going to contribute millions of dollars to a game where the case study (Pantheon) couldn't even meet it's KS funding goal (which everyone agrees is not even half of what the game needed to fund).

Quineloe · Apr 24, 2014

Maester Chuk_sl said:
i did, i played 2 months, went from 1 to max and then got bored and quit. i have been back in eq since january. went from 65 to 85 on chuk and went from 56 to 83 on my shadowknight and still have tons of stuff to do and am having fun. the game is not a snail's pace anymore, but its also a lot more interesting than when it started. in classic, you leveled very slowly to 50 then you camp resist gear and hope you can get in a guild that raids naggy/vox/planes. thats it. people have a selective memory on what the old days were like.

What's it like, grouping with yourself and your mercenaries only?

What we want is a social game, grouping with other people and actually interacting with them, because of interdependency. Neither WoW nor EQ today offer that.

Convo_sl said:
We were misled during the KS but the actual dev team was paid for 2 months work. I don't think everyone on the team was working pro bono like Brad mentioned.. That was obvious with the lack of art. Essentially, the game got 2 months of real dev time put into it. There were guys grinding out hours during the KS tho. Certainly Tony, Sal and Vu.

I don't believe for one second that three developers working on something for two whole months would produce so little to show. They were paid for two months, not for two months of work.

Lunis · Apr 24, 2014

Vandyn_sl said:
Sorry you're wrong. Blame the shitty KS, blame Brad but I can tell you that Pantheon most certainly did not prove this type of game can not only get 200-300k people butmaintainthat sub base. People played EQ and stayed playing EQ because it quite simply was the only option (or one of the very few). You cannot prove Everquest if it came out today would survive with those kind of numbers in today's MMO climate, especially if it was sub based. The only thing Pantheon proved was there are a few thousand fans who would be interested. The only people interested in Pantheon was this board, P99 and maybe one or two others. That's it, everyone one else dismissed it as 'eh, just another MMORPG that's 'hardcore' (whatever that means).

No sane publisher is going to contribute millions of dollars to a game where the case study (Pantheon) couldn't even meet it's KS funding goal (which everyone agrees is not even half of what the game needed to fund).

Utter nonsense.

By that logic a game like EvE should have been a complete failure while games like SWG and ESO should be successes. These super massive MMO's just don't work anymore, the market is saturated with them. There's a place for a game like EvE, just like there would be a place for a group focused PvE game, hardcore PvP game, or UO type game.

zzeris · Apr 24, 2014

Luxer_sl said:
Utter nonsense.

By that logic a game like EvE should have been a complete failure while games like SWG and ESO should be successes. These super massive MMO's just don't work anymore, the market is saturated with them. There's a place for a game like EvE, just like there would be a place for a group focused PvE game, hardcore PvP game, or UO type game.

No more ridiculous than your exertion that just because Eve exists, a game like this has a market. Eve does things a lot different than most of the market and has found it's niche. What is truly unique about EQ 1.5? Oh it's hardcore, I forgot. The truth of the matter is this drive for old school reimagining is being done by several people and the market is limited. With better designers, visionaries, and workers already starting games like Shroud, Camelot, etc, the market for this game was never guaranteed to be large enough to really succeed. The arguments on both sides have no true merit but the Eve argument is just as tired as the other one. It's also tripe.

Flight · Apr 24, 2014

imijj_sl said:
I haven't spent years on these boards like most of you, so I haven't had these stupid arguments before, but the second "M" in MMO stands for multiplayer. If you want to play a single player game go play Skyrim.

This is a straw man argument that was debunked years ago. The large majority of MMO players when polled about their preferred play styles said they liked to be able to spend 70%+ of their time alone whilst in MMOs.

As we all know the majority of players even in EQ1 now play alone, boxing or using Mercs. EQ2 went down the road of pandering to solo players earlier than EQ1 did.

I'm not saying there is no space for an MMO with little to no soloing, just that the 'M in MMO' line is a fallacy.

Vandyn · Apr 24, 2014

Luxer_sl said:
Utter nonsense.

By that logic a game like EvE should have been a complete failure while games like SWG and ESO should be successes. These super massive MMO's just don't work anymore, the market is saturated with them. There's a place for a game like EvE, just like there would be a place for a group focused PvE game, hardcore PvP game, or UO type game.

There are numerous things that make EvE unique, not just one thing. Nothing which is even remotely comparable to Everquest 2.0. Eve also was created at a time before the market was saturated with all these products thus had time to build it's playerbase to what it has now. The game took 3 years to even reach 100k.

Tauro · Apr 24, 2014

So what? Even 30-50k players with a sub-model (10$ per month) would work well enough. The only thing holding it back is thats just too small a market for a normal publisher.

Louis · Apr 24, 2014

Vandyn_sl said:
Sorry you're wrong. Blame the shitty KS, blame Brad but I can tell you that Pantheon most certainly did not prove this type of game can not only get 200-300k people butmaintainthat sub base. People played EQ and stayed playing EQ because it quite simply was the only option (or one of the very few). You cannot prove Everquest if it came out today would survive with those kind of numbers in today's MMO climate, especially if it was sub based. The only thing Pantheon proved was there are a few thousand fans who would be interested. The only people interested in Pantheon was this board, P99 and maybe one or two others. That's it, everyone one else dismissed it as 'eh, just another MMORPG that's 'hardcore' (whatever that means).

No sane publisher is going to contribute millions of dollars to a game where the case study (Pantheon) couldn't even meet it's KS funding goal (which everyone agrees is not even half of what the game needed to fund).

I always find it precious that you come in here and say people are wrong about this as if it's a definite. Unless we actually had a game of this type released to see the result your statement is bullshit. Just like people can't prove that it would work you can't prove that it wouldn't. Pointing to Pantheon in anyway as evidence is just retarded. This thing was a clusterfuck from day 1.

Convo · Apr 24, 2014

Daly_sl said:
I always find it precious that you come in here and say people are wrong about this as if it's a definite. Unless we actually had a game of this type released to see the result your statement is bullshit. Just like people can't prove that it would work you can't prove that it wouldn't. Pointing to Pantheon in anyway as evidence is just retarded. This thing was a clusterfuck from day 1.

That's the worst part about all this. A huge missed opportunity. A lot of people refused to support the KS but never ruled out actually playing the game had it released. Bottom line is we wont know the numbers.

btw.. I came across this project earlier.NevenTale - A Next-Gen, User-Driven MMORPG Revolution! by Vavel Game Studio Kickstarter

still weeding thru it but their KS has more content than Pantheon did. If Brad would approached this project like a guy trying to break into the industry and not I'm Brad McQuaid, give me money.. maybe we would of gotten a solid KS.

etchazz · Apr 24, 2014

Daly_sl said:
I always find it precious that you come in here and say people are wrong about this as if it's a definite. Unless we actually had a game of this type released to see the result your statement is bullshit. Just like people can't prove that it would work you can't prove that it wouldn't. Pointing to Pantheon in anyway as evidence is just retarded. This thing was a clusterfuck from day 1.

agreed. vandyn is a fucking idiot. just ignore him. if he actually believed his own bullshit, he'd be playing these modern MMO's that he hails as superior instead of being on these boards 24/7 trying to defend them.

Louis · Apr 24, 2014

Also Vandyn, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I just think talking in absolutes like that is ridiculous. Flat out telling someone they are wrong, based on your assement is no better than someone saying "yea a remake of eq would definitely be a gold mine."

Vandyn · Apr 24, 2014

Daly_sl said:
Also Vandyn, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I just think talking in absolutes like that is ridiculous. Flat out telling someone they are wrong, based on your assement is no better than someone saying "yea a remake of eq would definitely be a gold mine."

I don't think I'm that wrong. Understand that Pantheon was hyped (by Brad himself) months before the KS. Understand that we're to believe that thousands upon thousands are waiting for someone to just mention that they are making this type of game and the KS should of have 4-5k contributorson day one. Look beyond this forum, tell me exactly what defines 'interest' in a game like EQ (and all it's broken mechanics)? There are other games with certain aspects of EQ already on the market (or were at one point). Nobody wants to play them.

I never said there wasn't interest in a game like this. But this idea that this game can sustain 300k on a monthly sub model, with lets face it zero proof or evidence of such, is ridiculous. I'm not trying to prove anything, the reality in the industry is already there.

Quineloe · Apr 24, 2014

Maybe there are. Maybe it was just Brad's name that kept them away from it. Rightfully so, it turns out.

EQ btw sustained 500k a month on a monthly sub level. Explain why that doesn't count as proof.

Flight · Apr 24, 2014

I think it's a good point that Brad held off releasing the KS for months to time it when it would see more funding. And did nothing in terms of development during that time to show on KS.

Rerolled

Concept art .... A chair!

Vandyn · Apr 24, 2014

Quineloe_sl said:
Maybe there are. Maybe it was just Brad's name that kept them away from it. Rightfully so, it turns out.

EQ btw sustained 500k a month on a monthly sub level. Explain why that doesn't count as proof.

Because it was 13 years ago? Before WoW, before Steam, before the average gamer only stays with an MMO for 2-3 months tops, etc.

elvis_sl · Apr 24, 2014

dear rerolled:

Quineloe · Apr 24, 2014

Vandyn_sl said:
Because it was 13 years ago? Before WoW, before Steam, before the average gamer only stays with an MMO for 2-3 months tops, etc.

That's not a reason in itself. Also, the 500k peak was in 2004. You're just claiming stuff here but you can't back it up with any real arguments.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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