Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Mr Creed · Dec 29, 2013

Tol_sl said:
I don't want something just like EQ/wow, but I would like a game where there's interesting combat, consequences, and challenge.

We're in the same camp then I guess. But the issue for McQuaid is that even in the small slice of people that would consider his game, there's a ton of different opinions. Stray too far from EQ and you simply lose Laura and Tad10, leave PvP and you lose Flex, etc. Even if you ignore the people just posting to troll, the opinions of people that are genuinely interested in the project have vastly different ideas about what it should be like.

tad10 · Dec 29, 2013

Mr Creed_sl said:
I'm wondering, do you have any expertise regarding the zones/seamless topic, or is that just conjecture? I'm largely clueless about it but would assume wether zoneless is little extra effort or an expensive undertaking depends on the engine he licenses. I dont think zones are a big issue or stigma anyway, it certainly wasnt an issue in GW2..

I'm not a developer if that's what you mean. I just know that logically a seemless world requires significantly more art assets and designer time since you're dealing with a much, much larger area. If you don't invest in art assets/designer time you got large swathes of wasteland (as could be found in some areas of Vanguard).

etchazz · Dec 29, 2013

Abefroman_sl said:
How about the fact that most people have moved on and aren't in college or have the time to spend playing a mmo 12 hours a day anymore. How about the fact that most wow type mmo aren't as successful because many people if they wanted to play WoW just play WoW? The major point is getting the investing to make a game like EQ. Fuck man lighten the fuck up.

i didn't realize that because you're not 17 anymore that there aren't any 17 year olds anywhere on the planet anymore. you mean everyone in the world is in their 30's now? mind...blown.....

Abefroman · Dec 29, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
i didn't realize that because you're not 17 anymore that there aren't any 17 year olds anywhere on the planet anymore. you mean everyone in the world is in their 30's now? mind...blown.....

They didn't grow up on games designed around making you fail and punishing you. That was my point.

tad10 · Dec 29, 2013

@Creed

Elaborating.

If Brad & NewCo want to make the game on the cheap, but ensure that people don't run out of content and get bored quickly, then in addition to Zones they need to do something along the lines of:

1. Level 40ish Cap. Every ten levels requires a ton of work, in Vanguard you had a lot to do until 40 at release, after level 40 there wasn't much and there was no raid content at release. The hardcore left when they had nothing left to do by April.

2. Slow curve. This is obvious, a long grind ensures that people are going to take time to hit the cap. Original EQ curve is probably necessary for NewCo's game.

3. Large level gap in dungeons (EQ). VG dungeons rarely had 5 levels difference between beginning and end - which meant that even in the original VG XP curve you outleveled the dungeon within a week. NewCo won't be able to make a lot of dungeons, so the ones they do make have to last for a while. Should be ten to fifteen levels between beginning mobs and final boss mobs (i.e. Lower Guk).

4. Solable outdoor mobs (VG). I disagree that every class was soloable in EQ, those of us who can't do 4 hours a day, every day (@Quaid between my regular work, my commute and writing I only really have free time on weekends) need to be able to do something even if we just login for an hour or 1/2 an hour a day.

5. No quest to cap. Requires a lot of game designer and QA time to create and test all the quests necessary to quest to cap in lieu of grinding. Remove XP from quest and make them only for faction, items or gold.

6. Various forms of Cock-blocking. Again, with only a limited number of zones and limited development resources Newco needs to include various forms of developer and player cock-blocking: contested mobs, rare spawns, rare spawns that rarely spawn with their rare loot. And of course the ultimate cock-block: limited itemization (EQ style versus VG loot pi?ata).

7. Two raid zones. The one "extravagance" should be to ensure their are at least two contested raid zones at release (or one in and one due within two months). Again VG lost its hardcore players because they had nothing to do by the end of March/Early April.

8. Limited start areas, limited leveling zones. Newco can't afford VG's one start area per race. Assume something like 6 races (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Wood Elves, Drow, Ogres: 2 short, 3 medium, 1 large, 2 good, 2 neutral, 2 evil) combine start areas (for example Drow & Ogres, Dwarves & Gnomes, Humans & Wood Elves). Assuming three starting zones for 1-10 and no more than two zones per 10 levels thereafter (1-10 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 40Raid) so you'll only need 6 leveling content zones (with "dungeons") plus two raiding content zones. Add in a few "connecting zones" with mostly easy to create outdoor content (think Karanas) and your're done.

9. Limited race/class combos. You want to encourage people to play alts. So enforce strict race/class combos - no fucking Ogre Paladins in SlowQuest. Furthermore, since each additional class requires significant development team - go Diku-basic: Warrior, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Enchanter, Monk (Tank, Healer, Magic DPS+Teleport, Melee DPS+Pet, CC, Puller+Evasive Off-Tank).

10. A fluid combat system based on Vanguard OT/DT system but streamlined like EQ. Still unbelievable that this hasn't been copied in another MMO. OT/DT was great in Vanguard, 60 button hotbars was not. So take a page from WoW's development and make one zone (Undercliffs of Blackenberry) then develop the combat using a limited hotbar (like EQ) but with VG's OT/DT. Make it fluid and reactive - LOTRO was ruined by it's crappy oddly timed combat system. Doesn't matter how much you spend or don't spend on an MMO if the combat sucks, the game sucks.

10 1/2. PvP Server for the folks that want it. I'm fine with an additional "Arena" PvP zone on the PvE server - but the main game has to be PvE. Don't balance for PvP.

11. Stretch goals. (@Gogojira) Storybrick like AI for a few humanoid races (Darkheart Orcs, Gnolls) - be a nice change to have at least one or two mobs that wandered around a bit to change things. Add additional races (Halflings, High Elves, Trolls and maybe an Anthropomorphic race or two: Badgers or Lions). Add additional classes (Paladin, Shadowknight, Bard, Rogue, Shaman, Magician, Druid, Blood Mage, Disciple, Berserker, Yada Yada Yada). An additional leveling zone per 10 levels and maybe an additional "Heroic"-level group dungeon for the endgame.

But Nothing in #11 until the first Ten things are fucking complete. They can always be added in $$ expansions.

shabushabu · Dec 29, 2013

tad10_sl said:
This is a very good point. Can't be pure EQ - there has to be soloable content and every class has to have some soloability - just not the extreme soloability that is WoW. Can't be true old school hardcore fuck you no-soloing classes if you can't find a group when you login. So EQ-ish with VG classes/combat-ish and some grindable solo content (2/3 dot mob equivalents for VG) so if you login for an hour each night on the week and can't find a group you can do something to advance your character.

In my opinion, Vanguard had the PERFECT balance of solo vs grp content. 1. There was plenty to do when you did not have a group, with plenty of solo and duo ( or solo if you are good ) quests/dungeons etc. 2. Yet, the premium content was Group based, without question. 3. ALTs, this sounds odd but when vanguard population started to decline, i started making alts, lots of alts and I would LFG for [insert all alts] and always do the premium content... but this requires multiple leveling paths or starting areas and interesting classes to play, most new games FAIL at both.

shabushabu · Dec 29, 2013

One interesting way to address replay-ability is to have classes with very unique styles and even go back to the D&D days, with non combat skills used to complete quests... For example, imagine playing a bard and instead of slaughtering the same crapton of mobs you just did on your fighter, you bluff/trick your way through quests...

One thing that newer games fail to achieve is a truly different feel/experience/path for multiple characters... its even discouraged somewhat with class switching, multi roles etc... it used to be about the fact that adventuring through he world as a bard, was very different from a wizard... including but beyond combat.

Mr Creed · Dec 29, 2013

tad10_sl said:
@Creed

Elaborating.

If Brad & NewCo want to make the game on the cheap, but ensure that people don't run out of content and get bored quickly, then in addition to Zones they need to do something along the lines of:

1. Level 40ish Cap. Every ten levels requires a ton of work, in Vanguard you had a lot to do until 40 at release, after level 40 there wasn't much and there was no raid content at release. The hardcore left when they had nothing left to do by April.

2. Slow curve. This is obvious, a long grind ensures that people are going to take time to hit the cap. Original EQ curve is probably necessary for NewCo's game.

3. Large level gap in dungeons (EQ). VG dungeons rarely had 5 levels difference between beginning and end - which meant that even in the original VG XP curve you outleveled the dungeon within a week. NewCo won't be able to make a lot of dungeons, so the ones they do make have to last for a while. Should be ten to fifteen levels between beginning mobs and final boss mobs (i.e. Lower Guk).

4. Solable outdoor mobs (VG). I disagree that every class was soloable in EQ, those of us who can't do 4 hours a day, every day (@Quaid between my regular work, my commute and writing I only really have free time on weekends) need to be able to do something even if we just login for an hour or 1/2 an hour a day.

5. No quest to cap. Requires a lot of game designer and QA time to create and test all the quests necessary to quest to cap in lieu of grinding. Remove XP from quest and make them only for faction, items or gold.

6. Various forms of Cock-blocking. Again, with only a limited number of zones and limited development resources Newco needs to include various forms of developer and player cock-blocking: contested mobs, rare spawns, rare spawns that rarely spawn with their rare loot. And of course the ultimate cock-block: limited itemization (EQ style versus VG loot pi?ata).

7. Two raid zones. The one "extravagance" should be to ensure their are at least two contested raid zones at release (or one in and one due within two months). Again VG lost its hardcore players because they had nothing to do by the end of March/Early April.

8. Limited start areas, limited leveling zones. Newco can't afford VG's one start area per race. Assume something like 6 races (Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Wood Elves, Drow, Ogres: 2 short, 3 medium, 1 large, 2 good, 2 neutral, 2 evil) combine start areas (for example Drow & Ogres, Dwarves & Gnomes, Humans & Wood Elves). Assuming three starting zones for 1-10 and no more than two zones per 10 levels thereafter (1-10 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 40Raid) so you'll only need 6 leveling content zones (with "dungeons") plus two raiding content zones. Add in a few "connecting zones" with mostly easy to create outdoor content (think Karanas) and your're done.

9. Limited race/class combos. You want to encourage people to play alts. So enforce strict race/class combos - no fucking Ogre Paladins in SlowQuest. Furthermore, since each additional class requires significant development team - go Diku-basic: Warrior, Cleric, Wizard, Ranger, Enchanter, Monk (Tank, Healer, Magic DPS+Teleport, Melee DPS+Pet, CC, Puller+Evasive Off-Tank).

10. A fluid combat system based on Vanguard OT/DT system but streamlined like EQ. Still unbelievable that this hasn't been copied in another MMO. OT/DT was great in Vanguard, 60 button hotbars was not. So take a page from WoW's development and make one zone (Undercliffs of Blackenberry) then develop the combat using a limited hotbar (like EQ) but with VG's OT/DT. Make it fluid and reactive - LOTRO was ruined by it's crappy oddly timed combat system. Doesn't matter how much you spend or don't spend on an MMO if the combat sucks, the game sucks.

10 1/2. PvP Server for the folks that want it. I'm fine with an additional "Arena" PvP zone on the PvE server - but the main game has to be PvE. Don't balance for PvP.

11. Stretch goals. (@Gogojira) Storybrick like AI for a few humanoid races (Darkheart Orcs, Gnolls) - be a nice change to have at least one or two mobs that wandered around a bit to change things. Add additional races (Halflings, High Elves, Trolls and maybe an Anthropomorphic race or two: Badgers or Lions). Add additional classes (Paladin, Shadowknight, Bard, Rogue, Shaman, Magician, Druid, Blood Mage, Disciple, Berserker, Yada Yada Yada). An additional leveling zone per 10 levels and maybe an additional "Heroic"-level group dungeon for the endgame.

But Nothing in #11 until the first Ten things are fucking complete. They can always be added in $$ expansions.

I meant all classes I played in EQ could solo, not that all classes could solo. Thought that was clear. But we do agree, everyone should be able to do some stuff solo in this one. I'm sure other EQ-fans find the idea too WoWish though.

Slow curve, speed of progression, outleveling dungeons etc - AA abilities from lvl1 on are the obvious solution imo. They provide progression that isnt item based which is very important imo, especially if we want to go with items mattering again and thus good stuff being rare.

I'm strictly against consolidating races just for the sake of it. I would go with a more classic mix of races and make additional ones stretch goals though. But since this is a new world (I assume), it could be written to make sense. At any rate, churning out something like Greater Faydark shouldnt be time intensive. This also connects to my desire for a large world without instant travel, and different newbie zones are better then desolate empty deserts (although I also want a version of the Karanas, I like how it makes the world seem actually big and real). I would put an emphasis on mixing it with mid-level content close by so those newbie zones double as "bind/vendor spots" for mid-level chars.

Raid-wise, regardless of number of raid zones there should be some roaming targets, possibly even rare spawns and not on a strict timer. Make them fairly simple tank+spank since they are meant to be raided on the fly before your competing guilds find out they are up.

Fluid combat comes down to what engine do they buy I think? I doubt there will be funds to squander on making your own engine (and even then there's no guarantee it would be good, see VG). But yea make one town and a newbie area then tune the fuck out of combat and engine while your creative designs the rest of the world to be implemented later.

Ukerric · Dec 29, 2013

Skanda_sl said:
This is where I point out that inflation has happened in the 20ish years since EQ.

100$ in 1999 gives you 140$ in 2013. So, yea, 7 millions $ for EQ today.

tad10 · Dec 29, 2013

Mr Creed_sl said:
I meant all classes I played in EQ could solo, not that all classes could solo. Thought that was clear.

Eh, I failed my reading skill check, I guess.

But we do agree, everyone should be able to do some stuff solo in this one. I'm sure other EQ-fans find the idea too WoWish though.

Yeah this is where you, me and Shabushabu break from the maddening crowd. Though I don't quite agree with Shabu that VG was ideal for soloing. It was close though - the best stuff was in the Premier Dungeons. The main issue I had with VG soloing was the - as usual - quest grind; ended up with the WoW/Rift/LOTRO bullshit multiquest problem where you might be on different stages of a long quest and you'd have to backtrack to help your buddy, so it was actually better to just keep soloing. Again, remove xp for questing and it's all good (oh and return to the EQ standard that quest items drop off mobs whether or not you're on the quest).

Slow curve, speed of progression, outleveling dungeons etc - AA abilities from lvl1 on are the obvious solution imo. They provide progression that isnt item based which is very important imo, especially if we want to go with items mattering again and thus good stuff being rare.

I'm strictly against consolidating races just for the sake of it. I would go with a more classic mix of races and make additional ones stretch goals though. But since this is a new world (I assume), it could be written to make sense. At any rate, churning out something like Greater Faydark shouldnt be time intensive. This also connects to my desire for a large world without instant travel, and different newbie zones are better then desolate empty deserts (although I also want a version of the Karanas, I like how it makes the world seem actually big and real). I would put an emphasis on mixing it with mid-level content close by so those newbie zones double as "bind/vendor spots" for mid-level chars.

Raid-wise, regardless of number of raid zones there should be some roaming targets, possibly even rare spawns and not on a strict timer. Make them fairly simple tank+spank since they are meant to be raided on the fly before your competing guilds find out they are up.

Fluid combat comes down to what engine do they buy I think? I doubt there will be funds to squander on making your own engine (and even then there's no guarantee it would be good, see VG). But yea make one town and a newbie area then tune the fuck out of combat and engine while your creative designs the rest of the world to be implemented later.

I'm cool with all this, totally spaced on AA's and wandering Raid Mobs but both are good points. I just want to ensure there are actual raid dungeons though in addition to the wandering raid mobs. Still unbelievable that Vanguard shipped without a raid dungeon -_-

etchazz · Dec 29, 2013

Abefroman_sl said:
They didn't grow up on games designed around making you fail and punishing you. That was my point.

and my point is because there have been absolutely no MMO's since EQ that are punishing or challenging, you have no idea of whether or not a game like EQ would be successful.

Quaid · Dec 29, 2013

etchazz_sl said:
and my point is because there have been absolutely no MMO's since EQ that are punishing or challenging, you have no idea of whether or not a game like EQ would be successful.

Well... Vanguard at launch was pretty punishing... But it was also buggy, laggy, barren, and had no endgame content. But you're absolutely right. I want to see just ONE game built similarly to EQ with a clean launch and rich content. If it tanks I'll be first to admit I was wrong and stfu about it forever.

Xeldar · Dec 29, 2013

How to make melees solo: A quest for a 100/1000 delay weapon + jboots.

Bruman · Dec 29, 2013

Dammit, came back to tons of new posts, I thought some info had been released.

Grim1 · Dec 29, 2013

Quaid_sl said:
Well... Vanguard at launch was pretty punishing... But it was also buggy, laggy, barren, and had no endgame content. But you're absolutely right. I want to see just ONE game built similarly to EQ with a clean launch and rich content. If it tanks I'll be first to admit I was wrong and stfu about it forever.

Even if it tanked, that wouldn't mean the game you want is incapable of being popular. All that matters is the fun factor. A game can be brutally hard and still be fun, the same is true of a very easy game.

All entertainment; movies, music, art, etc, is the same way. Just because you follow the formula to the "T" doesn't mean you will be successful. There is an indefinable quantity that also has to happen and be included in the mix. And that can never be planned for. You can try for it, and you can hope for it. But if you force it, then more often than not it will die.

Artists, musicians, gaming devs and movie directors all try to put in everything they think will make their product popular. But the truly successful and extremely popular endeavors also have an ingredient that can not be bought at any store or taught at any school. I hate to call it "magic" because it sounds gay and Californian, but that is what it is.

tad10 · Dec 29, 2013

Fun factoid. Brad is one of the inventors on a type of in-game prospecting patent# 8,540,566 . Was applied for in 2011 but approved in September. Doubt it has anything to do with NewCo's game.

But what is interesting it is the patent was assigned to the defunct Maslow Six Entertainment/Council of Creators website which had a vaporware MMO: Sundered Sea. Again probably doesn't have anything to do with NewCo. But it's a slow newsday.

Council of Creators

So it looks like this was what Brad was working on before he rejoined SOE - so possibly he's not re-using SOE assets but maybe this abandoned IP.

Fedor · Dec 29, 2013

Laura · Dec 30, 2013

Am I the only one who wants the "tick" system back?

Like in EQ the game time is divided in rounds and each round is 6 seconds. Effects trigger every 6 seconds (regeneration, dots, longest weapon swing). I want auto-attack back (maybe improved) auto-attack where you can "build your deck" as in design your character to whatever you prefer (double attack, riposte, two-handed...etc skills that improve your character). I just don't understand why we need to spam buttons (combat rotations) when auto-attack can do it? Do we really have to press 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3 in order to enjoy a game? I think Brad's game should not focus on the Hotbar but more on the character development and socializing. In other words all redundant damage generation should be done automatically by your character.

I want Skill and Level system combined, just like in EQ. That part was not broken to be fixed and I don't want it to be dumped down. Evocation, Conjuration, Kick, Bash, Alteration, Swimming, Safe Fall...etc.

That DIKU system was not broken to be fixed. At best it can be expanded upon. I don't want to play a FPS or Action/Twitchy game. I want to Role Play my character; I want to develop my character and watch my character improve and do the work. Yes, there are tactical skills I can use but I don't want to jump left and right pressing buttons with that "reflective" whack-a-mole bullshit system. The last thing I want to do is look at the hotbar all the time instead I'd rather look at the world/combat itself. I want very limited buttons to press (but meaningful); more utilities and buffs/debuffs. Make buffs last a long time; bring back "WTB SOW" there's nothing wrong with making buffs that good it creates communities

Bring back interdependency skills that overcome inconveniences. Teleporting, Corpse Summoning, SoW, KEI, and create more. I want more tactical/crowd control skills like Evacuate, Fein Death, Charm, Mesmerize, Fear, Snare.

Support classes are FUN to play and FUN to be with. An EQ-Bard class would be great. Classes that improves your Mana Regeneration, Health Regeneration, Combat effectiveness, or classes that debuff your enemies Slowing their attacks, making them weaker...etc. Again combat must be more about Resource Management than Taptaptaptaptap bullshit for that to really shine. When resources are valuable (health, energy, mana...etc) then support classes make sense. Heck even non-support classes will be better to play since being "efficient" would be a key. Who cares about efficiency in recent games anymore? Managing your capability to keep going on before you go OOM (Out of Mana!).

I think the combat system can make or break the game. I honestly see NOTHING wrong with what we had in EQ; the reason was because I have never found a better combat in any MMO maybe except for COH but that's only for its game-play approach (and this is my opinion). Don't reinvent the wheel and end up with something that might not work. Bring back a combat system like EverQuest... please.

Laura · Dec 30, 2013

Mr Creed_sl said:
We're in the same camp then I guess. But the issue for McQuaid is that even in the small slice of people that would consider his game, there's a ton of different opinions. Stray too far from EQ and you simply lose Laura and Tad10, leave PvP and you lose Flex, etc. Even if you ignore the people just posting to troll, the opinions of people that are genuinely interested in the project have vastly different ideas about what it should be like.

But didn't Brad state that he's making a game like EQ and Vanguard? That means it's generally PvE centric and targeted towards a niche audience (yeah I'd rather it would end up a lot more like EQ than Vanguard; but in essence both games share a lot of similarities). I just despise Vanguard's itemization system.

As for PvP; I think (just like Vanguard and EQ) there will be PvP servers but I wouldn't expect balanced game-play.

Ukerric · Dec 30, 2013

Bruman_sl said:
Dammit, came back to tons of new posts, I thought some info had been released.

Nah, we're bored. So, like every game thread that has zero info in it, we're making our dream game, and discovering that our dreams are not exactly similar to other people's dreams...

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Too old for this shit

Elisha Dushku

Trakanon Raider

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider

Elisha Dushku

Molten Core Raider

Molten Core Raider

Too old for this shit

Bearded Ape

Elisha Dushku

Trakanon Raider

Trump's Staff

Silver Squire

Golden Squire

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Elisha Dushku

Lord Nagafen Raider

Lord Nagafen Raider

Bearded Ape