Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Kirun_sl said:

You Luddites had your day in the sun. Vanguard crashed and burned. You guys keep attempting to make your argument infallible by saying, "Yeah, well...that was a clusterfuck! No TRUE Scotsman("hardcore" game)would fail!", anytime numerous examples of "hardcore, niche" games failing are cited. You'll always point to theoneexample that succeeded(EVE), even though it took them years to build that base, and you'll use that against the numerous failures. It's also funny how very few(none)of you play the one example you can cite. If that's the case, is itreallya hardcore game that you're clamoring to play, or are you just hoping to get one more taste of the "glory years"? I'm betting it's the latter.

Now, I've had the same circular debate on this with Lithose. It doesn't mean thatsomeof the systems present in EQ shouldn't be explored and wouldn't work for today's gamers. However, this "EQ 1.5" nonsense is ludicrous. A game that is "EQ with better graphics!" will fail miserably.



Because it did so at a time when your other options were: DAoC(mostly PvP focused), UO(mostly PvP focused and nearing the end of it's "reign"), or Asheron's Call(mostly PvP focused). You then compound that with the fact that nobody wanted to leave their "friends". Those are all the ingredients SoE needed for 500k(430k were the last numbers released by Sony, so I'm not sure where 500k comes from)subscribers. Once a viable alternative came out(WoW), EQ was dismantled very quickly.

It's not comparable because it was nearly adecadeago. Alotchanges in 10 years, especially in the world of technology and consumers of said technology.

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Vanaguard was a great game that had a shitty launch and horrible technical problems. That is why for me personally I was looking forward to whatever Pantheon became. The group mechanics, dungeons and classes were rockstar.

But I get what you are saying the market has changed and the big publishers are not going to put out anything like Eq/VG... however, maybe someone will make a world ( or we can band together and do it ) within EQN . . . That would be interesting shit.

Iannis_sl said:

I honestly think that EQ in a browser would sell.

I also honestly think that Sony would charge too much for the name and you'd be better off making EQ-ish in a browser, instead.

And I don't think you'll make jillions of dollars. But for fucks sake, Runescape did just fine for what it was.

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Every time i try to go play eq the graphics just destroy it for me, its so damn old.

Abefroman_sl said:

Eq took a huge nose dive as soon as WoW was released. Those Eq sub numbers were with no competition. As soon as there was something else to play people couldn't wait to leave.

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EQ also released Gates of Discord just as WoW launched as well. EQ did itself no favors in this regard.

Kirun_sl said:

No, I'm making the argument that anytime a hardocre MMO fails and is cited as evidence for a smaller market of players existing than a publisher/investor is willing to take on, many of the EQ die-hards invoke the, "No true Scotsman" trope, in some sort of attempt to prove that it just hasn't been "done right". It's an attempt to make your argument infallible, I get it. The problem is, numerous attempts to target a hardcore audiencehavebeen tried, and they keep failing. Whether it's because their bugged, mismanaged, or too difficult/expensive to implement, all that matters to the people funding these games areresults.

The one example of "success" that exists, none of the die-hards play. Why is that? The die-hards love citing it as an example of a hardcore game "done right", why aren't they playing it? I'd venture to guess it's because what theyreallywant is just a reskinned EQ, in some vague attempt to relive the past. They don't havegenuineinterest in a "hardcore" game, or even a game with an EQ-esque penalty/reward system. Their interest lies not in the hardcore, but simply in reliving the glory days - the way things used to be!

That's the point I keep driving at in these debates. You die-hards aren't arguing for hardcore - which becomes very apparent once you extrapolate your points out far enough. What you're arguing for simply comes down to nostalgia.

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Gotcha, misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

Elidroth_sl said:

EQ also released Gates of Discord just as WoW launched as well. EQ did itself no favors in this regard.

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Thought that was OOW? Which would be even worse...

Gates was the one where every mob ran at bard speed during the first week and had chaos claw procs

Convo_sl said:

Thought that was OOW? Which would be even worse...

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Omens was the one released around WoW, but I'd say that Gates is considered the worst expansion. For starters, it was tuned for level 70 characters, but the level cap was kept at 65. It was a mess.

Lol, now people are advertising other games on the pantheon website.

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Neventale

I see it mentioned a lot here so I just want to state that for me personally, I don't want a hardcore dark souls mmo. I'm looking for a group centric, slower paced (much less button spam and 5 hotbars) mmo.

I want a lot of everquest with alterations. Updated graphics, better crafting, more accessible raiding to casual guilds that can't poop sock. Death that matters. There's more but you get the idea.

What I don't want is a game so hard that I can't turn my head to talk to my girl or drink a few beers while playing. It's also 100% required that I can at least do some combat with only one hand... Fuck this idea of a super difficult mmo that punishes you for not being a twitch gamer.

My opinion is very jaded though as I'm waiting to play on a Sony eq1 progression server lol.

Habakkuk_sl said:

Lol, now people are advertising other games on the pantheon website.

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen - Advanced Forum Detail Topic - Neventale

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heh must of saw me post it here. Doesn't hurt to steal a community. Not like they have a game now..

@Frenzic- I'm with you dude.

Frenzic_sl said:

I see it mentioned a lot here so I just want to state that for me personally, I don't want a hardcore dark souls mmo. I'm looking for a group centric, slower paced (much less button spam and 5 hotbars) mmo.

I want a lot of everquest with alterations. Updated graphics, better crafting, more accessible raiding to casual guilds that can't poop sock. Death that matters. There's more but you get the idea.

What I don't want is a game so hard that I can't turn my head to talk to my girl or drink a few beers while playing. It's also 100% required that I can at least do some combat with only one hand... Fuck this idea of a super difficult mmo that punishes you for not being a twitch gamer.

My opinion is very jaded though as I'm waiting to play on a Sony eq1 progression server lol.

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This is spot on. I'm a parent now. I can't sit in one spot for 6 hours unable to take my eyes off the screen or I'm dead. I have to get up a dozen times an hour to take care of the kids.

But now it seems we've come full circle in only 3 months to rewriting our wish lists again. Sigh...............

Kyndread_sl said:

Yeah, looks like their kick starter is already halfway over and they haven't even broken $4000 out of $2000000. Seeing this makes me think that we didn't really do all that bad with our kickstarter after all.

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*Facepalm* I wish I could see what what else these bradbros are saying in that circle jerk of a forum. Anyone still have access that has any good posts to share?

Quaid_sl said:

You have very limited scope if you think an MMORPG can't be made that both effectively incentivizes group-play, that also allows a player to complete certain tasks solo when feasible.

Quit while you are ahead. This never goes well.

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Actually, it's been shown time and time again that if you make soloing easy/effective people will always just solo the entire way. The only time anyone ever grouped in WoW while leveling up was to do the few group quests that you were basically forced to group for.

The only way to really get people grouping is to either make soloing impossible or make grouping so much more effective that it makes soloing pointless. Most games do neither of these things, and that's why all of these MMOs are basically like baseball where you have a bunch of single player games taking place in the context of a group experience.

Kirun_sl said:

No, I'm making the argument that anytime a hardocre MMO fails and is cited as evidence for a smaller market of players existing than a publisher/investor is willing to take on, many of the EQ die-hards invoke the, "No true Scotsman" trope, in some sort of attempt to prove that it just hasn't been "done right". It's an attempt to make your argument infallible, I get it. The problem is, numerous attempts to target a hardcore audiencehavebeen tried, and they keep failing. Whether it's because their bugged, mismanaged, or too difficult/expensive to implement, all that matters to the people funding these games areresults.

The one example of "success" that exists, none of the die-hards play. Why is that? The die-hards love citing it as an example of a hardcore game "done right", why aren't they playing it? I'd venture to guess it's because what theyreallywant is just a reskinned EQ, in some vague attempt to relive the past. They don't havegenuineinterest in a "hardcore" game, or even a game with an EQ-esque penalty/reward system. Their interest lies not in the hardcore, but simply in reliving the glory days - the way things used to be!

That's the point I keep driving at in these debates. You die-hards aren't arguing for hardcore - which becomes very apparent once you extrapolate your points out far enough. What you're arguing for simply comes down to nostalgia.

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The reason there hasn't been a hardcore MMO in a long time is that publishersthinkthat it's not worth it/impossible/whatever. Maybe they're right, maybe not. But the fact that a bunch of small publishers have failed doesn't really mean anything one way or another. I mean, plenty of huge budget themeparks have failed as well, and they keep getting made.

imijj_sl said:

Actually, it's been shown time and time again that if you make soloing easy/effective people will always just solo the entire way. The only time anyone ever grouped in WoW while leveling up was to do the few group quests that you were basically forced to group for.

The only way to really get people grouping is to either make soloing impossible or make grouping so much more effective that it makes soloing pointless. Most games do neither of these things, and that's why all of these MMOs are basically like baseball where you have a bunch of single player games taking place in the context of a group experience.

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The answer has never been to limit solo ability. It has always been to properly incentivize grouping.

kudos_sl said:

I will never play an MMO that doesn't allow me to get drunk while playing it. If I can't drink a couple beers and still be good enough to accomplish what I need to do for my class then it's a garbage MMO. I was drinking during almost every EQ / WoW highlight in my life that I can think of.

I remember a couple years ago I had an entire bottle of wine (never again) while grinding out dungeons in WoW tanking. It went from fucking boring to amazing by the 3rd glass.

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Sounds like somebody needs an intervention.

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imijj_sl said:

But the fact that a bunch of small publishers have failed doesn't really mean anything one way or another. I mean, plenty of huge budget themeparks have failed as well, and they keep getting made.

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No, you keepthinkingit doesn't mean anything. To the men with the money, it means everything.

The reason "theme-park" MMOs keep getting made is because they are still a short-term success. They can usually be used as a quick cash infusion and sometimes see evengreatersuccess in a F2P model.

imijj_sl said:

Actually, it's been shown time and time again that if you make soloing easy/effective people will always just solo the entire way. The only time anyone ever grouped in WoW while leveling up was to do the few group quests that you were basically forced to group for.

The only way to really get people grouping is to either make soloing impossible or make grouping so much more effective that it makes soloing pointless. Most games do neither of these things, and that's why all of these MMOs are basically like baseball where you have a bunch of single player games taking place in the context of a group experience.

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They is not to make soloing worthless, it is to offer a mix of content. What WoW and Rift both did was to offer a leveling experience that allowed you to solo all the way to max, but at the same time offered you a big reward (fun, items, diversity in experience) in playing through instanced dungeons. If you only allow people to effectively play grouped, you aren't going to be attracting a sizable audience for a sustained period of time.

There are too many other gaming/entertainment experiences out there competing for people's attention for them to want to have to spend a material portion of their gaming time doing little to nothing while getting a group together. One might even say that by offering compelling solo content, you keep people in the game, doing something, remaining available for invites to group content. Otherwise if a person logs on and finds his friends are already in a dungeon run or are offline, he is apt to log off or switch games. Having the mix of content is a win win: the player gets to play an enjoyable game while being available for potential group invites.

Solo content also helps your newer players by allowing them to progress where otherwise there as nobody to group with, obtain gear needed for advanced grouping content, etc, without having to have players much further along stop their progression to come help.

Think about the ecosystem of players: What are all of the things a player needs to do to have fun, remove as many obstacles as possible, and let them go hog wild. There is a reason we don't see games that require 20-30 minutes of regging up time any more: it was boring as hell and made sessions dominated by administrative work and not playing the game.

kudos_sl said:

I will never play an MMO that doesn't allow me to get drunk while playing it. If I can't drink a couple beers and still be good enough to accomplish what I need to do for my class then it's a garbage MMO. I was drinking during almost every EQ / WoW highlight in my life that I can think of.

I remember a couple years ago I had an entire bottle of wine (never again) while grinding out dungeons in WoW tanking. It went from fucking boring to amazing by the 3rd glass.

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That's the problem. Everybody knows that if it comes out of a box you won't get a hangover.

Fucking bottle of wine.

kudos_sl said:

I will never play an MMO that doesn't allow me to get drunk while playing it. If I can't drink a couple beers and still be good enough to accomplish what I need to do for my class then it's a garbage MMO. I was drinking during almost every EQ / WoW highlight in my life that I can think of.

I remember a couple years ago I had an entire bottle of wine (never again) while grinding out dungeons in WoW tanking. It went from fucking boring to amazing by the 3rd glass.

Click to expand...

That's the problem. Everybody knows that if it comes out of a box you won't get a hangover.

Fucking bottle of wine.