Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Dumar_sl said:

The difference comes down to a respect, almost a deference, to the consistency of the amount of hardship the world presents itself as. This level of hardship dictates almost completely by itself the immersion factor of the game. Frodo didn't click a menu and insta-port to Mordor - there was hardship involved, and through that hardship, whether reading or watching the story, you became immersed in Middle Earth. There's no middle ground with this fact of human experience -- you can't give someone the ability to port around via dungeon finder queues and expect them to have attachment to your world or the people in it. That's what we want back, and that's what this garbage industry, Blizzard especially, has taken from us.

That's the biggest difference for those wanting another EverQuest compared to wanting the shitfest WoW has become.

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Nailed it.

Not everyone wants a game that is hard, that takes time (sync); but for those who do, it offers a different experience that is palpable and compelling. Without some level of hardship, its just another game. Beyond immersion, shared adversity fosters community. Thats what mmorpgs were originally about, finding a way to survive and thrive in a dangerous and unforgiving world.

Whether Pantheon will ever give us this is unknown, but I don't feel like a moment of my time is wasted discussing it or commending them (or anyone else) for trying to create something that I'd like to play.

Draegan_sl said:

Also those people, at that time, basically bought every new MMO that came out regardless.

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I did maybe through Aion I think then I started playing single player stuff again.

Dullahan_sl said:

Nailed it.

Not everyone wants a game that is hard, that takes time (sync); but for those who do, it offers a different experience that is palpable and compelling. Without some level of hardship, its just another game. Beyond immersion, shared adversity fosters community. Thats what mmorpgs were originally about, finding a way to survive and thrive in a dangerous and unforgiving world.

Whether Pantheon will ever give us this is unknown, but I don't feel like a moment of my time is wasted discussing it or commending them (or anyone else) for trying to create something that I'd like to play.

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I agree. I just recently finished playing Pillars of Eternity, and although it was a single player game, it was an old school style RPG that the "industry" had pushed aside because it was viewed as no longer being viable in today's market. Shows what they know. POE was challenging, difficult, frustrating at points, I died a lot, but was the most fun I've had playing a video game in a very long time. It was also extremely successful, received great reviews, and wound up saving Obsidian from bankruptcy. I don't believe that Pantheon is ever actually going to see the light of day, but that doesn't mean that I don't want a MMO that tries to be more like EQ and less like WoW. There's a market for a game like this, and it's much bigger than most people want to acknowledge.

There's a market for 'hard' not 'long and tedious'. EQ never really fell into the hard category save very few encounters but quite frequently enjoyed the latter category during it's first several expansions. Once they started heavily scripting fights, maybe, but by then WoW had eaten their lunch and everyone had left.

As far as the numbers Convo finally guessed at, I think 50k is laughably high. I could see maybe see 10k but still doubt it.

What about punishing?

Punishing I will give you.

Unless you played a Necro, Monk or Rogue.

I think there is room for punishing in today's games.

There's plenty of punishing available in today's games. Even in the MMO genre, just not of the 'you might be about to lose all your shit' variety.

Skanda_sl said:

There's plenty of punishing available in today's games. Even in the MMO genre, just not of the 'you might be about to lose all your shit' variety.

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Like what? Just curious what features are out there in the modern MMOs. I haven't been playing much. Last game i played was ESO and I didn't feel much punishment for my mistakes.

In EQ you had to fuck up really bad before you were 'punished'. Your group/raid could almost always compensate for poor performance from several people during an encounter. Part of this was due to sheer numbers (raid-wise), the rest was because EQ combat was pretty relaxed and easy. I consider WoW raiding (and grouping until they removed Herioc groups) to be a far harder combat system. Not just for the scripting, which is far harder than 'stick the tank in a corner and watch push you fucks!', but they tuned the fuck out of those encounters to where if a single person fucked up once your entire group/raid just got fucked. That is far far more punishing to me than EQ and it's corpse runs ever were.

As far as the newest slew of games, I don't know. I've not bought an MMO since GW2 (The entire MMO action combat genre is another I'd call more 'punishing' than EQ).

The point being that punishment has shifted from being punished after a death by having to recover your stuff to death being the final punishment for cumulative fuckups during the encounter. Punishment is still there it's just blended into the game better. That extra kick in the nads just isn't all that necessary anymore and was never much of a punishment in EQ either. It was just a time waster because instead of getting back to actually playing the game by engaging the encounter you just failed again you now had to wait x amount of time for you group/raid to get everyone standing again. Corpse runs are what you seem to be calling 'punishment' and unless you were a soloer they really wern't all that punishing. EQ had punishing, it was just in most of the wrong places.

Skanda_sl said:

There's a market for 'hard' not 'long and tedious'. EQ never really fell into the hard category save very few encounters but quite frequently enjoyed the latter category during it's first several expansions. Once they started heavily scripting fights, maybe, but by then WoW had eaten their lunch and everyone had left.

As far as the numbers Convo finally guessed at, I think 50k is laughably high. I could see maybe see 10k but still doubt it.

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Multiple factors determine hardness of a game. Part of it is necessary time commitment. On the other hand, the things that people cannot stand is when they feel like they are unable to succeed because they don't have the necessary reflexes or willingness to learn (complexity). Those are the first barriers of entry to fall in new games. Time commitment is actually one of least discriminating barriers.

I personally never felt like EQ was long and tedious. Some players will, but oh well. Not everyone likes everything, and thats what you seem to be missing. You are still working under the assumption that if people in the mainstream aren't enjoying the game, it therefore must not be a "good" game.

Everyday gameplay in EQwashard. It was hard because mobs that gave you experience after level ~10 were more powerful than your character. You then either grouped, or played a class that had solo capabilities. Even then, there were limitations as to what you could accomplished, so eventually you had to put your ass on the line soloing in dangerous areas or joining a group. That group-focus is the defining characteristic of EQ and what made it hard compared to modern games that specialize in offering rewards and false praise to everyone, even if they aren't willing to take risks or work with other people in a massively multiplayer game.

Medding wasn't tedious? Sorry guys, alt-tab for ten minutes the cleric is oom.

I also never claimed EQ wasn't a good game. In it's day is was plenty of fun but it's mechanics are outdated now and there are better ways of doing things inside games that EQ hamfisted.

The game this thread is based on however will be complete and utter shit. I look forward to the day it comes out so I can laugh my fucking ass off at the Brad faithful.

Skanda_sl said:

Medding wasn't tedious? Sorry guys, alt-tab for ten minutes the cleric is oom.

I also never claimed EQ wasn't a good game. In it's day is was plenty of fun but it's mechanics are outdated now and there are better ways of doing things inside games that EQ hamfisted.

The game this thread is based on however will be complete and utter shit. I look forward to the day it comes out so I can laugh my fucking ass off at the Brad faithful.

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And if it's not, you won't be anywhere to found because you'll be playing...

Skanda_sl said:

Medding wasn't tedious? Sorry guys, alt-tab for ten minutes the cleric is oom.

I also never claimed EQ wasn't a good game. In it's day is was plenty of fun but it's mechanics are outdated now and there are better ways of doing things inside games that EQ hamfisted.

The game this thread is based on however will be complete and utter shit. I look forward to the day it comes out so I can laugh my fucking ass off at the Brad faithful.

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Will yee eat crow if wrong ? Did Brad steal your lunch money or something ? sheesh. I am just kidding around but damn there is some hate here.

Convo_sl said:

And if it's not, you won't be anywhere to found because you'll be playing...

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You keep saying that to try and convince yourself that everyone is just acting tough but will buy it once it releases but no, Pantheon will never 'grace' my hard drives.

shabushabu_sl said:

Will yee eat crow if wrong ?

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Likely I'd be eating it whether or not I wanted too. Fortunately for me it'll basically take a direct act of god to prove me wrong.

popsicledeath_sl said:

But that doesn't sound very well done. You mean, they botched the timing and execution of the launch, the underlying tech, and the implementation of content? Oh, was that all?

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I'm just saying the design and world layout of the game was really well done. From a technical aspect it was a nightmare.

Skanda_sl said:

You keep saying that to try and convince yourself that everyone is just acting tough but will buy it once it releases but no, Pantheon will never 'grace' my hard drives

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Not really. You come off very emo and whiny. Who wants to play with someone like that?!

Skanda_sl said:

Medding wasn't tedious? Sorry guys, alt-tab for ten minutes the cleric is oom.

I also never claimed EQ wasn't a good game. In it's day is was plenty of fun but it's mechanics are outdated now and there are better ways of doing things inside games that EQ hamfisted.

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This right here is my biggest issue with the feedback they are getting on their boards. Too many people over there think that because EQ was great back in the day that all of the mechanics were great and must be included! They want the stupid stinging death penalty, corpse recovery, etc. - all the stupid time wasting mechanics that the game had. "Medding" was one of the worst fucking mechanics i have dealt with, it almost caused me to quit. I don't mind sitting down, but looking at a fucking spell book was sheer stupidity. I don't so much mind corpse runs as do the mechanic that allowed you to lose your corpse. If you die and don't get resurrected, you pop at your bind point and have to run back, you could lose your camp, etc. It will still punish players for stupid play but people shouldn't have to worry about losing all their gear or recovering their corpse. I never want to see or be part of another 12 hour corpse recovery in old plane of fear, etc.

There are a lot of things that can be taken from EQ that could make Pantheon a good game if Brad doesn't listen to the fanatics on the pantheon board and overthink it or if Joppa can rein him in.

Yea. I don't need to be looking at a spell book either. That was a bit much. I actually like pots and food as long as it's crafter based and buffs from classes. That's enough for me.

I'm ok with a DP and CR but I think there needs to be a few means in adidtion to what was available in EQ to retrieve your corpse. Again, I like a crafted solution for that.