Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

qwertyqweqwertwqert · Feb 25, 2017

Vanguard had 150k in the first month and that game was pretty well known to have issues, even before release. This game will probably release in much better shape and with the public being much more positive about it. But I think this game will suffer from having no advertising budget. Advertising is kind of everything in this dumbass business. All the big games spend almost as much on marketing as they do on the game, sometimes many times more. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 Develmpent Cost $50 million. Marketing cost: $200 million. And countless other games work the same way:
List of most expensive video games to develop - Wikipedia

Pantheon is going to rely on word of mouth and basic twitter shit. It will do ok but I think it is going to start really small and be a slow burner. But Pantheon has the advantage of being a low budget game, with a relatively small team, so it doesn't need to be huge to be a success.

I have said all along that the niche audience thing is the way to go. It wouldn't have worked in the 90s, but the number of gamers on the planet now is so enormous, that even a niche can be really profitable. There are a lot of Kickstarter type games that are proving this, Divinity Original Sin, POE, etc. A good company that keeps it lean and aims at a niche audience and knows that audience well enough to give them what they have been starved of for so long, can succeed.

zzeris · Feb 25, 2017

I'm one who doesn't want much raid content if any. This team will have enough trouble getting a solid game released in the next few years. Let's not add expectations beyond the resources a great team could provide much less an inexperienced first time team. If they want raid type experiences add a couple bosses at the end of a dungeon or two or even world bosses. That should be plenty for a little while.

Vinjin · Feb 25, 2017

zzeris said:
If they want raid type experiences add a couple bosses at the end of a dungeon or two or even world bosses. That should be plenty for a little while.

They've basically said in one of the Twitch streams that this is exactly what they have planned in terms of raiding. In other words, there will be a little but it won't at all be the focus of the game.

Focus on the group game but with some solo content and a little raid content just to allow players a change of pace at times. Sign me up as it sounds very much like EQ (at least up until GoD).

etchazz · Feb 26, 2017

competition in a game is the ultimate carrot on the stick. I'm sorry, but it's true. It's no different than it is with sports. Participation trophies for everyone involved is the wrong way to go about it. Not everyone gets to win. When everyone wins just for showing up, you get games like WoW, which is what got us in this mess in the first place. I want one fucking game that rewards people for being good, and punishes people for being bad. That's all. I don't care if the only thing separating the good from the bad is a time sink, a competent guild, or any other reason, just make a game where there's a difference for being good at the game, and being bad at the game. I play poker almost every day. it's my livelihood. I'm rewarded for being good at the game, and people that suck are punished for being bad. I don't want to play poker if everyone wins every time they play just for sitting down and being dealt cards. I worked my ass off to become good enough to be better than the average guy who plays the same game as me, that's my reward for putting in the work. I want a MMO that understands this same philosophy. EQ understood it, that's why that game was so great.

tyen · Feb 26, 2017

Can easily have a bounty dude that is all like "kill X, he is starting to get real bad" and then everyone goes and kills him and comes back for random reward with a chance of getting something crazy sick.

Easily makes it to where bosses are dynamic and more people get loot from a raid and still have a chance that 1% get lucky and get something crazy sweet.

Thats one idea in regards to dynamic raid encounters instead of camping X uber boss spawn.

Tie in some lore or some stupid shit like that and you got yourself a story that changes every month or so.

zbounty dudes pop up all over and adds to a feel to where the social world is actually changing when in reality its just some easy shit to implement.

In places where people dont cull the mobs, overtime the area builds up a modifier chance to have some bounty dude all pissed off to tell people to take out their leader and shit. Mobs start to gain strength, loot and shit changes based on it. Global loot sets that change to make replayability in certain areas that people dont often go that modify ++strength because of it

Zaide · Feb 26, 2017

One of the best parts about the competition in EQ was how much it extended the life of the game. Racing for Cazic Thule meant it was still pretty fun after like the 40th kill. Furthermore at a guild leader/officer level it introduced a whole world of politics and alliances that could either be fun or terrible depending on how the server environment was. Just by limiting resources you cause your players to create their own content.

Ukerric · Feb 26, 2017

goishen said:
That's why all of those Asian MMO's are designated as Asian MMO, instead of just MMO's. Asians love grinding. I don't know why.

I think that it's absolutely horrifying when you stumble upon these kind of video

... and you realize the only 3 MMO on these lists that are not asian combat grinders are... Pantheon, Crowfall and Elyria (all crowdfunded).

(and also, wtf is that with all these MMO that look exactly the same? Do they buy a code base and asset store stuff and simply put a new name and zones, and blam?)

xzi · Feb 26, 2017

what, you guys don't like p2w in every single asian mmo that has existed?

Ukerric said:
(and also, wtf is that with all these MMO that look exactly the same? Do they buy a code base and asset store stuff and simply put a new name and zones, and blam?)

Yeah I honestly hate this style. Every game since Aion basically looks exactly the same but slightly more anime-y, with very few exceptions.

zzeris · Feb 26, 2017

Vinjin said:
They've basically said in one of the Twitch streams that this is exactly what they have planned in terms of raiding. In other words, there will be a little but it won't at all be the focus of the game.

Focus on the group game but with some solo content and a little raid content just to allow players a change of pace at times. Sign me up as it sounds very much like EQ (at least up until GoD).

Sounds really good. I like having some solo and raid content and they can always expand on that after they see how the game does. Lots of fun stuff can happen but they need more experience and probably a bigger crew to really get this thing going well. Only MMO I'm interested in which is truly sad. Still not holding out any expectations.

goishen · Feb 26, 2017

Ukerric said:
I think that it's absolutely horrifying when you stumble upon these kind of video
... and you realize the only 3 MMO on these lists that are not asian combat grinders are... Pantheon, Crowfall and Elyria (all crowdfunded).

(and also, wtf is that with all these MMO that look exactly the same? Do they buy a code base and asset store stuff and simply put a new name and zones, and blam?)

I think that it's partially an industry problem fed off'a a player problem, creating a vortex, which is bringing the entire MMO problem to its knees. The industry problem is that it's asking the players what they want. The player's problem is that they don't know what they want. So the industry keep putting out games like this or like WoW. The players see this, and keep saying the game's either too difficult or too easy. It's one extreme or the other. No middle ground. To which the industry says, "Well, you didn't know what you wanted." Etc etc etc.

It's just like an old married couple where you just wanna shoot both of them after being with them for five minutes.

EDIT : EQ's problem, I think, is that it was "Oh shit moments, delineated by hours of pure boredom" to paraphrase somebody (I believe off'a here, but I can't be sure). I took down Lady Vox. That's about as far as my raiding experience in EQ went. Oh sure. I loved it, all two minutes of it. Compare that with the four - five hours I spent sitting around waiting for people? That didn't really whet my appetite. That came years later in WoW, wherein we took MC and BWL in Vanilla. All that EQ did was teach me how not to experience raiding.

Muligan · Feb 26, 2017

etchazz said:
competition in a game is the ultimate carrot on the stick. I'm sorry, but it's true. It's no different than it is with sports. Participation trophies for everyone involved is the wrong way to go about it. Not everyone gets to win. When everyone wins just for showing up, you get games like WoW, which is what got us in this mess in the first place. I want one fucking game that rewards people for being good, and punishes people for being bad. That's all. I don't care if the only thing separating the good from the bad is a time sink, a competent guild, or any other reason, just make a game where there's a difference for being good at the game, and being bad at the game. I play poker almost every day. it's my livelihood. I'm rewarded for being good at the game, and people that suck are punished for being bad. I don't want to play poker if everyone wins every time they play just for sitting down and being dealt cards. I worked my ass off to become good enough to be better than the average guy who plays the same game as me, that's my reward for putting in the work. I want a MMO that understands this same philosophy. EQ understood it, that's why that game was so great.

Preach brother.. preach

Ukerric said:
I think that it's absolutely horrifying when you stumble upon these kind of video

... and you realize the only 3 MMO on these lists that are not asian combat grinders are... Pantheon, Crowfall and Elyria (all crowdfunded).

(and also, wtf is that with all these MMO that look exactly the same? Do they buy a code base and asset store stuff and simply put a new name and zones, and blam?)

I think for most media outlets it has this way for awhile. It was like this when Archeage, Aion, etc. were starting to release their information. I guess media outlets believe it makes their posts/vlogs look nice to showcase these really beautiful looking, action packed games but what you quickly notice there's nothing more to report. These games are extremely shallow and linear. You have to want that type of game or maybe it's a cultural thing to enjoy them. In their defense, what else is there to report? Turn back time 5 or even 10 years ago, the list is pretty well the same but add EQNext and drop Pantheon and potentially Crowfall off the list as you go further back.

I think, to our benefit, we are in a unique situation. Major IP's and publishers aren't sticking out their neck out to face further humiliation. Older devs have had time to (hopefully) learn their lesson and now they're stepping back up to the plate.

As I look through our most recent discussions of MMO's, it's fairly promising... WoW, Pantheon, BDO, ESO, Albion, Camelot, and Ashes of Creation. Now half of those are already out but seem to be heading in a good direction. The most depressing news in that thought is Everquest really has no stake in what's going on today or in the near future. Pantheon is really the only breath of EQ so I guess that worth something but it looks like people are trying. I know this very loose comparisons and it may not be as positive or impactful as it seems but if you think about it...

Shroud of the Avatar / Albion / Runescape NXT = UO
Pantheon / Camelot = EQ / DAoC
ESO = of course an attempt to bring a very popular RPG to the MMO world (especially with the addition of Morrowind)

So I guess to take a positive stance, it appears people are not necessarily attempting to replicate the WoW experience but they're looking back and that's so much better news than seeing 7 out of 10 upcoming MMO's are Asian grinders or another set of WoW clones with beloved IP's attached to them only to be underwhelming.

wilkxus · Feb 26, 2017

etchazz said:
Participation trophies for everyone involved is the wrong way to go about it. Not everyone gets to win.

WTF? But but but.....You will make the little Timmies will cry!

Imagine a Content system like this, tweak your %ages for your budget ....

[ 1% or less ] 1-3 Ultimate Prize Raid events per 1 or 2 years: game master led raid content battles and encounters. Budgeded for x number of GM day employee hours. Where GMs (not AI npcs) compete & interact with elite guilds/players that finish the lead up mini raids and quests. Would require some actual questing/grouping/raiding from easier content too just get chance to play.
[ 4% ] Classic Raid content: requiring classic AI raidy type quests/battles and girnding
[ 5% ] Ultimate Prize *Interactive Group events per year: game master led quest events (1 or 2 , floating per BIG dungeon) leading to actual group events vs a GM led group of npcs. (*interactive*: think EQ Monster play, where spectating players can play easier *grunt* NPC mobs in a Velious Ring war event). Both Winner and Consolation prizes, or consolation prizes. No guarantees of winning. If you loose you get maybe consolation prize. 1 Try per GM work day. Let new players run & tweak quests/event difficulty until Items given out per server.
[ 90% ] Group content: ranging from 10% very high end group content down to slacker stuff and even WoW Timmy difficulty.
1% pvp arena play for people to practice slaying echother to ninja the Uber Sword of DEATH on raids! PVE servers you Duel, PVP servers Free For All!

Aaaaah, Imagine all the tears over the UNIQUE stuff won/lost! Meaningfull fighting over unique 2 ro 3 time content per server. Not the outdated EQ or WoW mechanics....
Not just trinkets, not prizes, not just mobs but actual winning! For keeps!
Fight for actual domination! Over Power ! Mwahaha!

Because Ultimate raid content should have forced pvp. If anyone engages, or even breathes close to your final kill for high end raiding content ... you can leave them a bloody smear. Even on PVE servers.

No struggling for trivial Timmy rewards here. Social interactions, politics, alliances would be of utmost importance then. No need for fake quest writing and emotions.... "waaah The evil ogre stole my blah! Recover it and you shall have my gratitude forevah! *wink* *wink*...."
*ugh*

Real tears..... real quests

.
Real winning or loosing of unique quest items. You do not need 10000 thousand magic items in a game wasting millions of $ on artist hours for shit nobody cares about. Have fewer items, well made and designed, for quests to give real, unique serverwide rewards! Collecting Items needed to give a real edge in salying the Big GM Raid event beast.... trampling and slaying enemy guilds on your way

This way a group game would not need *much* raiding to be fun. Raiding would not have to consume 100% of play time over months and months grinding same shit. People could actually group with friends guildies and allies doing fun stuff hoping to gather quest clues while doing regular type MMORPG group content that is cheaper and easier to tune than overpowered raid content. Perhaps you can gather and clues to other guilds or give to friends. You know, those Bartle explorer types that give a shit and live for this sort of questing. Solving these ultimate raid events to get an edge on the competition could be very fun and bring meaning to all friends and guildies involved at a server scale.

Eventually those guilds or alliances in the *lead* would need to ramp up a little and organize better to race for the *bigger* clues on the way....looking over their shoulder as they race to the raid mobs that will offer clues or magic equipment, the ONLY unique items on the server to slay the Ultimate event beast.

Overall content picutre:

5% expensive service, custom GM led & served content for Elite Groups & Elite Raid Groups
5% classic raid batphone poopsocker content
90% classicy group content
Fun group play leveling and advancing individual progression in between occasional raids

Just please, no shit shops, or more fooking retard level sheet for Timmy challenged Wow junk collectors of color coded, auto generated +goody goody trinkets!

Make a fantasy game world please (not park) ! A world for Massively Multiplayer Role Playing Gaming goodness with questing for unique hand crafted and itemized treasure. Let people compete with real people instead of AI. Leave the Timmy raiders to their WoW theme park instances please.

Scoresby · Feb 26, 2017

Crafting is another aspect that is tough to get right. I feel there are some good ideas out there, but haven't seen them put together well yet. I really like the idea of having artisans whose entire gameplay is focused on trading and crafting. This was a neat part of the Ultima Online community in the way back and there were literally guilds who did nothing but mine make ingots to sell to smiths who stood around town making high end weapons and repairs (and you could wreck someone's gear if you didn't have skill to repair it!). A point that I feel has been missed on is to add high end crafting reagents from various sources, up to and including raid bosses. Then it becomes a combination of material quality/rarity and crafter's skill (you can even be specific here and have talent trees where certain types of items will be made better by one craftsman vs another); let the output of that be experimental in nature, perhaps even with a random component.

I would not advocate this as a replacement for item drops in dungeons/raids, but think of it as a nice alternative, and perhaps the filler for class tokens in raids. Instead of the token, you get a dragon tooth from the dragon. And guess what, you get multiple ones each kill...why? Because it's a dragon with a shitton of teeth! So now you can make some weapons or maybe some cool armor or use it as a reagent for a powerful spell (want to keep fast travel scarce?).

Off of the derail...I am cautiously optimistic about Pan'Theon. Hopefully it won't suck too bad. As others have said, there really isn't a lot else on the horizon.

ZyyzYzzy · Feb 26, 2017

DAoC had great crafting that was also required for RvR

Vinjin · Feb 26, 2017

I'm less concerned about the crafting system they use for Pantheon and more interested in the role/power that craftables have in the game.

For example, I like the idea they've already shared that some quests will require certain crafting be done in specific locations, notably deep in hard-to-reach dungeons and such. I assume those will be part of the epic lines but what about craftable items in general? How will they compare to normal item drops and rares?

Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Masakari · Feb 26, 2017

I enjoyed non-instanced content because it forced a community to interact for itself for the best benefit of everyone (relatively speaking). Because(like WoW for example) of mechanics that fragmented communities (instances), they had to introduce things like LFR and LFD because there were no mechanics to help re-enforce a community and make it work together. The introduction of cross-realm technology was really cool though.

Regime · Feb 26, 2017

This game will change the face of the industry.

@Utnayan

Palum · Feb 26, 2017

Regime said:
This game will change the face of the industry.

@Utnayan

This is @OurWorld

wait no the chant goes something like

"WHOSE GAMES? OUR GAMES! WHOSE GAMES? OUR GAMES!"

actually I think it's more like

“It is our duty to fight for our gear. It is our duty to win. We must raid with each other and corpse run for each other. We have nothing to lose but our dailies.”

Zaide · Feb 27, 2017

It's crazy to see them doing so much with the funding they have, considering Vanguard had like 30 million. Even with all the pledges they're probably not even close to those numbers.

In other news, the guild website is up. Now we just have to wait for a year.

www.FacelessGaming.org

Regime · Feb 27, 2017

Zaide said:
I don't see a way to look at all members in the current Pantheon forum setup but I went through and looked at all the users who've posted on the VIP forums and it comes out to around 250. There could be a huge number who never posted there but we know at a bare minimum that Pantheon has $250,000 in funding from VIP pledges alone, and that's just assuming minimum VIP pledges, an unknown number of these are 3k or 10k pledges too.

It also seems like I see one or two new VIP pledges every day on the forums. So hopefully funding is pretty decently secured for the game. I can only assume that as we move forward and more streams come out the backers will increase in number. Word is that we can expect a new stream "soon". My guess is around April.

In other news, the guild website is up. Now we just have to wait for a year.

www.FacelessGaming.org

Z's going to be the top Pantheon streamer. $$ Dolla Billz

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Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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