Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

zzeris said:

Hmmmm, ok I see the problem. You guys think we are as stupid as the other places. The perks of PLing are far greater than the perks of grouping or group mentoring. You don't have to fill a 5-6 person party, one person greatly out levels the content and you can quickly and easily cheat the system and level quickly way beyond your means. So...why not just admit that? Why use Arden's argument of freedom( to game the system)? That's the main argument against instancing, no drop gear, etc right? You can't be superman in a MMO? Just be honest and say you wanted to easily crush everything! You want to brag that you quad-kited those drakes!!

Just don't act like you want to experience hard content except when it suits you. You want control over your environment while asking for less. You want a console game with reusable feel good perks. You admit PLing is a solo activity yet talk all that group goals-based bullshit afterwards? Talked about more difficulty while trying to cheat the system? Seriously? And you think we believe that?

You, Arden, Illi, and probably many other want a time when poor game design helped you feel like a bad ass. As a_skeleton_02 mentioned, you probably never raided high end content (EQ's sucked anyway) so the only way you could gain that feeling is gaming the system. I used that system, too. I enjoyed that system but I don't need it back. I prefer to feel like a bad ass while moving to the next bad ass situation. I understand your side of the story but I don't think they are making that game. I don't think anyone is.

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The perks of PLing were huge in EQ. Should they be? Definitely not. But should it be prevented altogether? Definitely not.

If we're going to get down to details, I'm of the opinion that a low level player should be able to benefit from the assistance of a high level player. It just shouldn't yield the gains it did in classic EQ. For instance, if a friend does 49% of the damage to a mob or heals the player for the same, they should receive 51% of the experience. This will effectively make powerleveling a safer and slightly more efficient way of soloing. Still, it should yield considerably less experience than a group, but if two players want to just hang out on the outskirts of an area and do their own thing, they should be able to. It should be allowed, but not encouraged.

What should be encouraged is grouping, and for the sake of efficiency (in a game full of inconveniences standing in the way of efficiency), players should look to their peers rather than only people they already know. That was a huge difference between classic EQ, and current games. You grouped with new people all the time because it was necessary to get anything done.

None of these things have anything to do with me wanting an easier game.

Looks like Vanguard 2 tbh

Yah, I mean, I was a part of a good raiding guild alliance back in Vanilla WoW and TBC. I think I was even part of it in the next expansion... Was that WotLK? I don't remember. All that I do remember is that shit just got old. Same old bosses, same old moves. Same shit, different day.

If you play at that high of a level for long enough, it's obvious, for me at least, that you're gonna start to want something smaller, more personal. I found that in single player games again after I had already made the proclamation that SP games were dead to me.

Dullahan said:

What should be encouraged is grouping, and for the sake of efficiency (in a game full of inconveniences standing in the way of efficiency), players should look to their peers rather than only people they already know. That was a huge difference between classic EQ, and current games. You grouped with new people all the time because it was necessary to get anything done.

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Holy shit yes.

Almost anyone should want to group up all of the time. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of players should feel compelled to group up for safety, efficiency, and the potential for loot.

I can see where eventually, due to mudflation, PL and Twinking might affect his, but honestly I hardly ever encountered problems like that in EQ trilogy era. Even twinks or those with a buffbot usually wanted to group. Having a newbie tank in raid gear or a pocket chanter/Druid etc. for your group was considered a rare but cool treat when I played.

Personally though I've never enjoyed being power leveled or having a high level baby sit my groups. I liked the challenge of trying to push the envelope of my character's abilities when I played. I did love collecting twink gear for alts though. Getting kitted out and then seeing just how far you could push your luck.

On a side note, it's fucking weird that this thread has become an actual discourse about Pantheon and its potential game mechanics again.

Tolan said:

I think I know how to solve this issue, if it is that much of a sore spot: Servers w/ rule sets.

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People have been asking this forever in every game that comes along, but it never happens, I wonder why.

zzeris said:

You, Arden, Illi, and probably many other want a time when poor game design helped you feel like a bad ass. As a_skeleton_02 mentioned, you probably never raided high end content (EQ's sucked anyway) so the only way you could gain that feeling is gaming the system. I used that system, too. I enjoyed that system but I don't need it back. I prefer to feel like a bad ass while moving to the next bad ass situation. I understand your side of the story but I don't think they are making that game. I don't think anyone is.

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I rolled with KTF and was one of the top bards on prexus, i stop shortly after kunark release, I wasn't in their guild because I had my own small guild, bards were rare at the time, I was quickly geared since there was only two of us.
I loved making Innoruuk by bitch before they fixed it, Bard charming, good time.

My first character was a Shaman that i sold at level 37 and got $730 for(my biggest score). even though i got $1700 for my fully raid geared bard i put so much time into it. Shamans used to able to dot kite before they change in need to be "close in combat nerf thing"

zzeris said:

I hope it fits your needs. I'll play for the nostalgia at first and then we'll see just how hard it really is. That's the main point for me after the early rush of a new game.

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Hard is relative.

There were VERY few guilds in EQ who were ever doing anything (just like every other mmorpg) that was on the bleeding edge without already knowing the encounters with some walkthrough of do A B and then C and collect your loot. Even back in 99-00 I can remember the mirc channels where guilds would often be telling other guilds how to do content before there were the online walkthroughs in games like WoW.

I think that was one of the incredibly fun things about EQ, there were ways if you were good and played with good people that you could do certain raids with say, half the people other guilds were doing them with. The zerg thing was one bad part about early EQ for sure, some guilds just threw more and more numbers at things till they died. Honestly I think that was the golden age of EQ, for those who actually played at launch the effects spells etc were not filtered serverside, so bringing too many would just lag even the best machines then so it basically capped your raids and forced you to not zerg things.

But anyways, EQ was what you made of it. One of the things that I got a rush from was sometimes we would take one group and do things (no exploits btw) that other guilds would fail at with 2-3 groups. Kind of hardmode mode way before there were such things. But it was a rush nonetheless. Will that be in Pantheon though? I doubt it, and I doubt we will ever have that kind of experience again. Hell, the WoW crowd couldnt even handle darkness at night, but I loved those kinds of things. A little fear can make an experience so much more memorable.

Nothing is really hard when you are coming into a game with a set group of people, who already have a plan to do X, who have all played the beta/alpha, data mined the fuck out of everything, and have 10+ year of experience with such games.
It will never be what it was. Everything was new, everyone was new. People took time to explore things. People didn't give up at the first death, even if death was harsh.
People talked to each other because they were not on a discord with a bunch of people before the game comes out.
The best thing brad could do is stop trying to listen to everyone and just make a game that he wants to play, not some middle ground mediocrity bullshit. Stop asking his team, stop asking the community and make that goddamn fish race that he wanted, or whatever his story was about.
middle ground mediocrity bullshit is what kills games

Dullahan said:

What should be encouraged is grouping, and for the sake of efficiency (in a game full of inconveniences standing in the way of efficiency), players should look to their peers rather than only people they already know. That was a huge difference between classic EQ, and current games. You grouped with new people all the time because it was necessary to get anything done.

None of these things have anything to do with me wanting an easier game.

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This is where I disagree a bit. In my opinion, mentoring only helps grouping by expanding the possible pool of groupmates. I would go so far as to say its essential in a game because all games eventually become top heavy and new players have little option for grouping. Its a barrier to bringing new players into the game. Sure some people may look first to their high level guildmates instead of other level appropriate folks, but its just as likely they will have 2 or 3 takers and then can add that other guy who has been shouting for a group for the last hour. That guy might have logged off in frustration but now he has an almost full group to run that dungeon with.

Furthermore, some people just don't like to make alts. One character is all they want. Without mentoring, they have no way to help out lower level folks looking for groupmates. Maybe they loved the lower content but don't enjoy facerolling it with a high level toon. They mentor down and problem solved. I think mentoring systems solve a lot more problems than they create. People so insular that they will only look for mentored guild mates are going to be insular no matter what system or lack thereof is in place. I would contend that the number of people who will pass over new folks to only group with mentored guildmates will be at least matched, but probably exceeded by those that will mentor down just to help people run content they couldn't otherwise run (from lack of group options). It happened in Vanguard.

Faux said:

This is where I disagree a bit. In my opinion, mentoring only helps grouping by expanding the possible pool of groupmates. I would go so far as to say its essential in a game because all games eventually become top heavy and new players have little option for grouping. Its a barrier to bringing new players into the game.

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Mentoring is great when it's necessary, but detrimental when it's not. When there's an adequate supply of people to group with, the world shouldn't bend to accommodate you. If you want to play with a new player, make a new character.

However, when there's a shortage of players, especially in a particular level range, mentoring should be allowed in a limited capacity. That means up to a certain level, and only one or two per group to make room for other level appropriate players.

Faux said:

Furthermore, some people just don't like to make alts. One character is all they want. Without mentoring, they have no way to help out lower level folks looking for groupmates. Maybe they loved the lower content but don't enjoy facerolling it with a high level toon. They mentor down and problem solved. I think mentoring systems solve a lot more problems than they create. People so insular that they will only look for mentored guild mates are going to be insular no matter what system or lack thereof is in place. I would contend that the number of people who will pass over new folks to only group with mentored guildmates will be at least matched, but probably exceeded by those that will mentor down just to help people run content they couldn't otherwise run (from lack of group options). It happened in Vanguard.

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Mentoring systems solve problems when they need to be solved, but otherwise create problems. All one has to do is look back at how much higher the quality of interaction was in EQ back when people had no workaround and had to rely on random people. Contrary to what some claim, that wasn't just because EQ existed at a time when it was all rainbows and magic on the internet. I know, because I played the other MMOs that weren't as rigidly cooperative, and it was a very different experience.

When people can circumvent other players, they will. Whether that means soloing or just sticking with people they know exclusively. When that becomes an option, the quality of interaction between players suffers, and player reputation is unimportant.

Dullahan said:

When people can circumvent other players, they will. Whether that means soloing or just sticking with people they know exclusively. When that becomes an option, the quality of interaction between players suffers, and player reputation is unimportant.

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This is a reality of online gaming now. We are all guilty of it. We want to play with people we already know and mostly ignore the rest.
I'h been with the same group of people, we call it our "gaming club", for over 20 years now. New people rarely join and if they do it's people that we know in real life.

I meet new people through games all the time...

The vast majority of people I know through gaming for 15+ years have moved on with their lives and aren't about to jump hardcore into a new niche MMO. If your clique does then, as a_skeleton_02 said earlier, your experience is the exception to the rule and quite frankly a little wacky.

a_skeleton_02 said:

Big fan of the Firiona Vie server, No twinking and camping plus RP.

Shame they didn't make a PVP version.

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Is this a joke? FV had the worst twinking of any server. Everything is tradeabale.

Raid upgrades were fun though, because as each member received a new drop they could hand down the old gear to newer members. We also had a guild bank that could outfit anyone instantly. This certainly helped with replacing members due to attrition.

Evernothing said:

Is this a joke? FV had the worst twinking of any server. Everything is tradeabale.

Raid upgrades were fun though, because as each member received a new drop they could hand down the old gear to newer members. We also had a guild bank that could outfit anyone instantly. This certainly helped with replacing members due to attrition.

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Yeah, that post made me chuckle. Almost everything on that server was tradeable outside of epics and a few other shit, but it was 1 char per account.

I pretty much play with the same 10 people or so in any MMO or just gaming period now. I just don't want to deal with new peoples suckage at gaming or their personalities really. Plus I know these guys have the same schedules and life issues as me at this age etc.

ili said:

This is a reality of online gaming now. We are all guilty of it. We want to play with people we already know and mostly ignore the rest.
I'h been with the same group of people, we call it our "gaming club", for over 20 years now. New people rarely join and if they do it's people that we know in real life.

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As nice is it is to be able to just avoid the general population at times, if they want to make games more social with "community" that everyone talks about, they have to limit that convenience.

Iadien said:

Yeah, that post made me chuckle. Almost everything on that server was tradeable outside of epics and a few other shit, but it was 1 char per account.

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Wasn't sure if i was missing something there or he just had no clue what he was talking about.

None of you guys actually played on FV did you?