Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Elidroth

Trakanon Raider
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AA's are probably the best incremental carrot to reward players for "limited" playtime ever designed for an MMO. Oh shit I can't play much tonight. But even solo or with one other guy I can play for an hour or 45 minutes and at least get an AA. Designing an extremely detailed AA system full of useful utility stuff, useful fluff stuff, fun things, cool things, quirky things, legitimate stat and ability increases and letting players go through it as they will is a huge and efficient system to keep people playing.

Designing them around 30 mins per AA for the modern era is a pretty good idea. Still annoys me that a lot of MMOs never bothered with an AA system.

But I totally agree, game needs to encourage more than just the item treadmill. I should be able to login. Craft some stuff, get some skill ups, gather some stuff or something and that would be rewarding. Get to a far off location... anything.

AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.
 
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tyen

EQ in a browser wait time: ____
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AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.


When AAs run out then there is no point in getting xp. Then evolving items created a new xp grind sink.

AAs were created for a reason to grind xp. Putting a cap on the amount of AAs would be counter to the point AAs were created.

The flavoring of a character was secondary to the purpose of forcing people to keep gaining xp without adding more levels
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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When AAs run out then there is no point in getting xp. Then evolving items created a new xp grind sink.

AAs were created for a reason to grind xp. Putting a cap on the amount of AAs would be counter to the point AAs were created.

The flavoring of a character was secondary to the purpose of forcing people to keep gaining xp without adding more levels

I loved my AA like everyone else, but in reality, to keep new players coming to the game it creates a massive hurdle. Then you get to the point like EQ where you just have to auto grant shit or have massive AAXP modifiers when you are so far behind. What is the point then? Look at today. You can't play modern EQ without thousands upon thousands of AA at a minimum. I don't exactly know what the solution is either, but why focus on a grind game when you have to trivialize it later?
 

Ukerric

Bearded Ape
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AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.
One of my old design for an AA system was the Slot Improve system. Basically, when you get AA, you can apply them to a slot, either an action slot (the 1--0 action bar) or equipment.

Each AA applied to the slot improves stuff by a fixed %. Buff/debuff last 5% more, does 2% more dmg/heal/slow/whatever, piece of equipment provides 2% more stats, etc.

The AA remain attached to the slot; if you move spells around (of course, you can't do that in combat) or replace the piece of equipment, the bonus applies to the new spell or gear.

Costs are of course increasing against time (cost for an improvement is equal to 1 + number of AA acquired + number of AA already in that slot. So, after you improve your staple spell twice, the 3rd improve costs 5, while improving another slot is only 3).

This had the neat effect that it cost very little in dev and design time afterward. But, of course, it lacks flavor.
 

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.

I always had similar thoughts regarding the AA system. Design the system to truly be a tree that allowed path specialization, not to simply obtain all of them over time. The possibilities seemed intriguing but I also saw significant balancing issues with that route as well.

For example, let's say the system allowed the player to specialize by role. Seems logical enough. If the player chooses to be more tank focused as an example, then their AA tree would consist of mitigation abilities, endurance/strength increases, increases in block and riposte skills, etc. For the obvious tank classes such as Warrior, SK and Paly, this seems like a no brainer path to take but how would say, a Monk be balanced if they chose this same path? For that matter, what would the net effect be if a Chanter or Mage chose this path? Would they now suddenly be able to serve as tank in a group while still dishing out their primary focus/spells?
 

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.

While I understand that there are pitfalls to EQ's implementation of AA's. It doesn't mean that the system is inherently fucked. Look at EQ today and WoW... lots of the chase for people are FashionQuest cosmetic bullshit or flavor stuff. Have huge portion of AAs be fore flavor and the smaller "necessary" section be for character power increases.

Years ago Zehn talked about the idea of X items doing very specific things. Such as a Shield of Guarding that allowed you to block some specific ability types that exist in a certain area or dungeon. Changing the situational items like that per expansion would create another chase. Adventure in this area until you can get in a group where someone has X item or you acquire it and can no progress further.
 

Jysin

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I always had similar thoughts regarding the AA system. Design the system to truly be a tree that allowed path specialization, not to simply obtain all of them over time. The possibilities seemed intriguing but I also saw significant balancing issues with that route as well.

For example, let's say the system allowed the player to specialize by role. Seems logical enough. If the player chooses to be more tank focused as an example, then their AA tree would consist of mitigation abilities, endurance/strength increases, increases in block and riposte skills, etc. For the obvious tank classes such as Warrior, SK and Paly, this seems like a no brainer path to take but how would say, a Monk be balanced if they chose this same path? For that matter, what would the net effect be if a Chanter or Mage chose this path? Would they now suddenly be able to serve as tank in a group while still dishing out their primary focus/spells?

Because in 99% of iterations, over time people will figure the best min / max combos and no one else worth a shit would spec outside of that.

You said yourself, a War, Sk, or Pal would be stupid to go for anything else besides Defensive builds.

FWIW, this was EQ2's AA system. You had AA trees and could only spec so many AA. You had to choose which branches to spec, but again.. there were optimal builds and 99% of the server went the "optimal" route for their class.
 

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Gear inflation was a big problem in EQ. If we'd kept with the idea that magical bonuses were very rare and small, then it might have been manageable.

I always felt this probably had a lot to do with how quickly skills, spells, abilities were mudflated between classic and Velious. As we all know, Brad and team had no idea that they would be laying the groundwork back then for a 20+ year game but by the time they released Velious, we already had some significant and game-changing spells/abilities in the game (65% slows for Shaman and Defensive for Warriors immediately come to mind). These raised the ceiling way too quickly and handcuffed you guys quite a bit going forward with regards to continuing to evolve player progression.
 

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Because in 99% of iterations, over time people will figure the best min / max combos and no one else worth a shit would spec outside of that.

You said yourself, a War, Sk, or Pal would be stupid to go for anything else besides Defensive builds.

FWIW, this was EQ2's AA system. You had AA trees and could only spec so many AA. You had to choose which branches to spec, but again.. there were optimal builds and 99% of the server went the "optimal" route for their class.

I don't disagree. The AA tree design has been done numerous times in other games and as stated, in almost every iteration that I saw, it created it's own share of balancing problems. Besides, that system seems to go against the overall design of original EQ to begin with (i.e., each class being designed for a specific role).

The jist of my comment was more along the lines of sharing my recollection of what I was expecting back when they first introduced the system in Luclin.
 

Vinjin

Lord Nagafen Raider
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307
Years ago Zehn talked about the idea of X items doing very specific things. Such as a Shield of Guarding that allowed you to block some specific ability types that exist in a certain area or dungeon. Changing the situational items like that per expansion would create another chase. Adventure in this area until you can get in a group where someone has X item or you acquire it and can no progress further.

From what I've read and heard, this sounds very close to what the VR team is planning for Pantheon.
 

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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It is pretty interesting to see now that we have multiple MMOs out there that have been around for a long time. Very obviously EQ was pioneering new territory and didn't foresee a lot of the long term effects that designed them right into a corner. Very much the same thing can be said for WoW. They've made plenty of longevity mistakes too.

Inevitably Pantheon will also make longevity mistakes. Albeit much different ones. The specific item set thing will always keep them relevant though.

One of the major things I don't get about modern WoW is the conciseness of their expansions. Every later expansion gives you certain zones to lvl and not many other options. While EQ gave you tons of leveling options with many redundant places to level. EXP modifiers are cool though. The more dangerous places giving more exp than the safer ones.

The WoW design of, "everyone gets to do all content" is something I hope we can avoid. That's good for a game but bad for a, "world" if you will.
 
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Srathor

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I wish you could get all the aa's but could do like that other dude said and slot a specific number of them. Buttons and gear slots gives lots of choice and flavors of the month depending on what you get.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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When AAs run out then there is no point in getting xp. Then evolving items created a new xp grind sink.

AAs were created for a reason to grind xp. Putting a cap on the amount of AAs would be counter to the point AAs were created.

The flavoring of a character was secondary to the purpose of forcing people to keep gaining xp without adding more levels

Yep. Quit EQ after hitting max level in Velious. Was raiding with the top guild on the server, but back then without that "ding" sound to look forward to I kind of lost interest. Then AA's came out and I was hooked again.

But that was then. Was still young enough to not care about massive grinds, and even enjoyed them. Can't be bothered with them now.
 

TJT

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I wish you could get all the aa's but could do like that other dude said and slot a specific number of them. Buttons and gear slots gives lots of choice and flavors of the month depending on what you get.

I like this one too. Create a sea of AAs and only allow 10 of them to be active at any given time outside of the fluff ones.
 
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Reht

Molten Core Raider
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AA systems are incredibly painful to manage on the design side. At least they were on EQ when I took them over. If I could have changed 1 thing about EQ it would be to change the AA system to not be open ended. It should have NEVER been possible to get them all. It should have been a choice to let you flavor your character one way or another.
Yeah, i said the same thing for years, that was one of the things i prefered with DAoC's RA system vs EQ's AA, you had to make meaningful choices to build your character for your style of play (mainly PvE or PvP in DAoC) rather than just play a little longer to max out.
 

Elidroth

Trakanon Raider
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When AAs run out then there is no point in getting xp. Then evolving items created a new xp grind sink.

AAs were created for a reason to grind xp. Putting a cap on the amount of AAs would be counter to the point AAs were created.

The flavoring of a character was secondary to the purpose of forcing people to keep gaining xp without adding more levels

I could give a shit about the original intent of the AAs.. It was a bad design decision.
 
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Kuro

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Just give me:
8 Activate Combat Button Slots
4 Situational and/or Utility Button Slots
and
3-6 "Passive" Slots

That I can fill/change around from my acquired AA shit outside of combat/instance.

I'm okay with having an endless AA grind for *options*, rather than raw power increase.
 
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