Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Melvin said:

The only thing we know for a fact that is that Brad* SAYS that he WANTS to TRY to recapture HIS OPINION of what the ALLEGED "MAGIC" of Everquest WAS TWENTY YEARS AGO.

*Brad "We Broke Bards Again" "The Fiery Avenger Quest Is Working As Intended" "Parking Lot Pink Slip Party" "Kickstarter Gonna Rock" "Fuzzy Troll" McQuaid

I have plenty of doubt about whether Pantheon will be worth a shit.

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You can't make an omelette without breaking a few classes.

TJT said:

I don't expect perfection. I expect the same glaring fucking design flaws and experimental game design that made EQ and parts of Vanguard great.

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By flawed and experimental, I take it you mean the intentionally unsanitized design meant to offer players more ways to play the game.

But will they truly be unsanitized or will the dev team impose restrictions on them in some way, shape, or form in an effort to create balance?

I have no doubt that things like Feign Death splitting or quad-kiting will be in-game (we already know the former is from the last stream). I suppose I'm not yet convinced that they will be implemented in the same way we remember it back in the glory days of EQ. For example, they've hammered home the point of wanting players to group for XP but have mentioned also having "some" solo areas for people short on playtime. What does this mean for the quad-kiters?

TJT said:

I don't expect perfection. I expect the same glaring fucking design flaws and experimental game design that made EQ and parts of Vanguard great.

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Pretty much this. I get the impression that there are still fanboys who think that Pantheon IS going to be perfection though, which is pretty scary. I just hope that there are an ample number people with realistic expectations and the balls to (eventually) call the Pantheon devs out on whatever bs they inevitably will need to be called out on.

Vinjin said:

But will they truly be unsanitized or will the dev team impose restrictions on them in some way, shape, or form in an effort to create balance?

I have no doubt that things like Feign Death splitting or quad-kiting will be in-game (we already know the former is from the last stream). I suppose I'm not yet convinced that they will be implemented in the same way we remember it back in the glory days of EQ. For example, they've hammered home the point of wanting players to group for XP but have mentioned also having "some" solo areas for people short on playtime. What does this mean for the quad-kiters?

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Do we know FD splitting is in the game? I saw that guy Feign a lot on pulls but I never saw him split stuff. I only watched like 15 minutes of the stream. If it is in the game he's just terrible at it then.

Fyff said:

Do we know FD splitting is in the game? I saw that guy Feign a lot on pulls but I never saw him split stuff. I only watched like 15 minutes of the stream. If it is in the game he's just terrible at it then.

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He did utilize FD to split some mobs IIRC, but it's hard to tell exactly how the mobs behaved. And while he may be bad, I'll give him a bit of a pass due to the circumstances of simultaneously trying to conduct a stream while playing.

This is exactly what I'm referring to in my previous statement. Mob behavior in EQ was in some ways very predictable but in others, it was very unpredictable. Pathing was one of those ways. It was like organized chaos. Timing of when to tag and/or stand up, understanding the invisible rails they used, etc were the skills and knowledge that not only made the mechanic work but also separated average players from really good ones who treated it more as an art form. This is the kind of gameplay I want to see again.

That was 20 years ago though using archaic tools and code. Back then, they were happy the game even fucking worked at all. The VR team has much more knowledge and better tools available to design around mechanics like this, which increases the potential they find ways to control or limit them in the spirit of game balance.

Part of me is excited about that potential. After all, that describes perfectly the notion of modernizing EQ in a game vets will want to play. It could be awesome if they get it right. But the other part of me can't get past the feeling that they will go overboard with it and deliver a much more sanitized version than what players are looking for.

FD is rocking

Personally think they need to throw in some other variables to make FD more fun and challenging. It's a novel concept, but as it existed in EQ, rather primitive to be imported into Pantheon verbatim.

They could actually add gameplay like timing the ability after being hit to increase chance of success. Player health could actually play a part as well.

Agreed, I hope we are seeing the very first iterations of FD and AI behavior with these streams. It seems like the mobs instantly forgot him on FD, so right now it's just a get out of jail free card.

It will be interesting to see how the VR team handles the "end game" for Pantheon. I know they say the game will be focused on the group game with a sprinkle of solo + raid content, but that's easy to say when everyone is still level 1. At some point, the majority of players will be max level (50?) and looking for the next carrot.

Crafting, alts, and the perception system may be enough to last until the first expansion but I wonder if that's enough. It seems they'll need something else besides just "moar content" since players will just consume that in no time anyway.

Vinjin said:

It will be interesting to see how the VR team handles the "end game" for Pantheon. I know they say the game will be focused on the group game with a sprinkle of solo + raid content, but that's easy to say when everyone is still level 1. At some point, the majority of players will be max level (50?) and looking for the next carrot.

Crafting, alts, and the perception system may be enough to last until the first expansion but I wonder if that's enough. It seems they'll need something else besides just "moar content" since players will just consume that in no time anyway.

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Two words: Gated Content

Bring on those sweet sweet 4000+ man hour key camps to get your raid into Ssra2.0!

In seriousness though, if they aren't doing instances gearing up becomes far less trivial so that buys them a lot of time until they need to deal with second and third generation raids. I am sure they will embrace the hate that is faction grinding as well, because, who doesn't like spending a month farming grey con goblins so you can cheese pull Chardok!

TJT said:

In all honesty. What is a meaningful way to prevent poopsockers from consuming all content without timesinks? While the VT timesine was bullshit mainly because there were AAs to get and you had to choose killing greys to get shards for your key. If they were actually places to get EXP It'd probably be okay.

I've yet to see an innovative solution for that. I think keys you can get via groups in places you'd already be going for XP or items is better than forcing your guild to rekey new people constantly. At least it would be a meaningful kind of grind then I guess.

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Totally agree. Timesinks and grinding are the name of the game with a design such as this. Grinding on grays is shit but as long as the grind is actually meaningful beyond the intended item, such as XP gain and/or the possibility of other loot upgrades while keying, then I'm perfectly fine with it.

I can't help but continue coming back to the epic quests. In EQ, every class had one and it was for a weapon (or in some cases, two weapons). Imagine those long, epic quests for not only weapons but for each individual visible armor slot too. Not exactly original I know but could definitely be designed around mostly group content with some solo and raid mixed in as well. Now we're talking about 8-10 slots each with its own epic quest line requiring the player to complete content all over the game world. That sounds to me like it would be fairly time-intensive for 99% of the player pop.

Of course, epics still bring numerous challenges to the game as well, with balance being at the top. Additionally, that many quest lines across every class would require a metric fuckton of dev time to design and, if history repeated itself, would typically have a much shorter shelf life than intended, especially once expansions roll out. Not to mention the elitist bullshit that comes with them ("Hey, we need a tank for orc_camp_2. What's that? You don't have your epics yet? Sorry, you can't join the group").

Vinjin said:

I can't help but continue coming back to the epic quests. In EQ, every class had one and it was for a weapon (or in some cases, two weapons). Imagine those long, epic quests for not only weapons but for each individual visible armor slot too. Not exactly original I know but could definitely be designed around mostly group content with some solo and raid mixed in as well. Now we're talking about 8-10 slots each with its own epic quest line requiring the player to complete content all over the game world. That sounds to me like it would be fairly time-intensive for 99% of the player pop.

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That's one of the things i loved about DAoC, at level 50 you started your epic quest which would give you a full set of visible gear and it was all group level content. I would love to see an epic quest that you start at low level that gives you a new step (with a reward) every 5 or so levels. Level 10, you get a level 10 weapon. Level 15, you get a chestpiece.....then at level 50 (or whatever the max is) you start the final (re: real) epic quest line for whatever ultimate reward they decide. but yeah, i agree.

It could just be a single, very long multi-stepped quest that rewards pieces along the way, culminating in your awesome "ultimate epic" item