Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Jarek · Nov 18, 2017

Khane said:
Why were you sweating blood trying to keep long durations buffs up? And mana problems on your enchanter? All you had to do was mez and maybe slow during group play. Mana problems means either you were bad or your group was trying to train other groups and you were too stupid to realize you weren't supposed to CC the shit.

Because in 99 no one had gear, no one knew how to pull, no one knew the zones, and everyone around you was a stranger until you finally started thinning the wheat from the chaff of skilled players. Adds meant healer died and you wiped with a bunch of unreliable fuck ups down in some dark hole with what precious little gear you did have left on your corpse. Hell, nobody knew where good gear even dropped for a long time, shit was rumors and secrets.

I feel like some of y'all played with college friends or groups of RL nerds you knew. Normal people went into EQ totally alone. You had to build those relationships ingame, from the tiny pool of good players you met slowly over time. You had to prove yourself to get into a raiding guild, and they had to prove themselves to you.

I was actually a highly skilled enchanter, and I saved more groups from wiping than I should have , but it costs mana to compensate for other people's fuck ups. Try to remove yourself from the now, and all you know about EQ at this time and either remember, or if you're too young try to imagine, what it was like when nobody knew shit about EQ. No one had boxes, Alts, guild groups and shit at first. That came later, at 50 and 60 when we'd figured everything out. Up until then, it was a constant struggle to survive, make progress, buy spells, and save up plat or camp for the gear you wanted.

Louis · Nov 18, 2017

Jarek said:
I feel like some of y'all played with college friends or groups of RL nerds you knew. Normal people went into EQ totally alone. You had to build those relationships ingame, from the tiny pool of good players you met slowly over time. You had to prove yourself to get into a raiding guild, and they had to prove themselves to you.

That or just played at a different era altogether.

While there is definitely some rose tinted glasses in this thread, there's also some shit tinted glasses going on as well.

Skanda · Nov 19, 2017

Jarek said:
Because in 99 no one had gear, no one knew how to pull, no one knew the zones, and everyone around you was a stranger until you finally started thinning the wheat from the chaff of skilled players. Adds meant healer died and you wiped with a bunch of unreliable fuck ups down in some dark hole with what precious little gear you did have left on your corpse. Hell, nobody knew where good gear even dropped for a long time, shit was rumors and secrets.

I feel like some of y'all played with college friends or groups of RL nerds you knew. Normal people went into EQ totally alone. You had to build those relationships ingame, from the tiny pool of good players you met slowly over time. You had to prove yourself to get into a raiding guild, and they had to prove themselves to you.

I was actually a highly skilled enchanter, and I saved more groups from wiping than I should have , but it costs mana to compensate for other people's fuck ups. Try to remove yourself from the now, and all you know about EQ at this time and either remember, or if you're too young try to imagine, what it was like when nobody knew shit about EQ. No one had boxes, Alts, guild groups and shit at first. That came later, at 50 and 60 when we'd figured everything out. Up until then, it was a constant struggle to survive, make progress, buy spells, and save up plat or camp for the gear you wanted.

In summary, it was a hard game to play when everyone sucked at it....

Gotcha.

zzeris · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
Hay guyz if you play with perfect knowledge, perfect tactics and perfect players this game is SOOOOOOOO EZ

So...at what point did you actually learn how to play your class? I remember the primary chanter spells coming at the beginning so you wouldn't be a worthless liability to your group? I mean chanters had it hard. No one ever wanted them in their groups, They provided shit spells, and they had to constantly maintain spells like haste, and KEI which had long durations. If you got in an amazing group, you might even plan which mobs to mez. It was hard to guess since there were no ways to communicate though.

Man, I bet rangers laughed their asses off every time a chanter tried to find groups, right?

Edit- that era is gone. There are no games that you come into it totally ignorant, blind, and stupid. Kids are much better gamers with more resources today so no one is coming into a game not knowing shit in this era. This is one of the terrible arguments for 'another EQ'. That time is long gone. It didn't even last two years. In some kind of fantasy land, people might take a month to tear into a game like that. People will be flying through this game when it finally releases. Flying and hoping there is endgame content and more on the way.

Palum · Nov 19, 2017

Flobee said:
I think one of the unintended side effects of Eq's simplicity is such that if you were a good player, you could occasionally be a hero and pull off some crazy stuff. The toolkit that some classes had allowed for a high skillcap.

WOW has a high skillcap but an individual players impact doesn't feel as significant. Perhaps it is, but I've never felt that way. Part of this might be due to how inactive and lazy eq players can be due to game mechanics versus wow where slacking is obvious due to meters etc.

I disagree with this. I can think of countless times hero players impacted raid kills. Rogues, warriors and hunters especially in classic.

Even one example, our first AoI hardmode kill in Ulduar, we were at risk of wiping due to mana and a ton of deaths, but Steelbreaker was getting very low. I was playing blood dk dps, I ran out, taunted the tank debuff (huge dps increase but you died after 30s iirc), yelled at our tank to taunt back and got in and murdered the last few percent and we got the kill with like eight people still up.

There aren't many of those opportunities anymore though, bosses are too binary lately, but they do still happen from time to time.

gLobal · Nov 19, 2017

What I find interesting when discussions like this happen, is how vastly different peoples experience can be when talking about the same game/same era/etc.

If you are a skilled player, in a top guild, surrounded with other skilled and dedicated players, research + min/max, geared best in slot, and/or have vast resources – the game is EZ Mode. Of course it is. That’s basically every MMO. You literally ‘won’ the game as much as you can.

The reality is the percentage of people who make it there, or stay there very long - is a fraction of the playerbase. The arguments from the top apply to very few peoples experience.

I had enough time at the top (relatively) in both EQ and WoW, and found it soul-crushingly boring. Key this, raid that, schedule here, drama there, the vast amounts of time and consumables required. It sucked.

I spent way more time playing odd hours because of my job, running around guildless, and meeting random people. I was often the good player in shitty gear, and in places I had no business being in. My experience like that was way more enjoyable.

forensic · Nov 19, 2017

zzeris said:
So...at what point did you actually learn how to play your class? I remember the primary chanter spells coming at the beginning so you wouldn't be a worthless liability to your group? I mean chanters had it hard. No one ever wanted them in their groups, They provided shit spells, and they had to constantly maintain spells like haste, and KEI which had long durations. If you got in an amazing group, you might even plan which mobs to mez. It was hard to guess since there were no ways to communicate though.

I played a dark elf enchanter in 99. We were on dialup with 300+ pings. Many of us were using software rendering because we didn't have 3dfx voodoo or ATI Rage cards. Graphics cards were brand new, uncommon, and expensive. The 3d part of the game was in the middle of your screen at something like 640x480 with a huge opaque UI around the sides. You had to meditate constantly and couldn't see anything around you at those times.

The world felt large and wild. Chaotic. Dangerous. The only safety you had were city guards and other players.

Spells didn't say what they did on them. We didn't have 3rd party sites to read about them. Random people would sit in town or at entry areas in zones testing spells and discussing what they did and what they could be used for.

Talking about EQ in town was more fun than playing most games are today. It was like discussing D&D or Magic with friends at school, except now you had hundreds of friends. In 99 the internet was exciting because you could meet so many people.

Roger Wilco wasn't around yet so no voice chat even among your best friends. We would exchange ICQ numbers. The real hardcore people would get on IRC and learn the true secrets of the game.

Most people did not understand the purpose of Enchanters. People knew they eventually get crack and that was it. Few knew about mez or charm. There were not these huge gaming/twinking communities like today where people "help their friends" by trivializing the game for them from the very start. If you go play on p99 today you'll meet people who are new to EQ but have been twinked and powerleveled from day 1 by their "gaming community"... are they so stupid they think this is how anyone played in 99?

We would spend long periods of time chatting. I would explain to my groups that enchanters have this awesome spell called mez. I set up egg timers for haste because it only lasted 5 minutes and took 30% of my mana bar per cast. There were no perfect groups and definitely no perfect players or perfect knowledge or known perfect tactics.

There were many times people would lag out for minutes and come back to corpses. It was just normal. A good enchanter who didn't lag out while everyone else lagged out could keep the group alive. People would say stuff like "what do enchanters do again?" until half the group lagged out and the enchanter saved the day, or a bug makes a train stomp on you and AE Mez lets people get to the zoneline. If you saved your mana you could be a hero. If you got in there and nuked with chaotic feedback you could wipe your Crushbone group.

All of the 3d MMO tropes were invented in EQ. Pulling wasn't obvious, people had to learn about it. Standing in a safe area and letting someone pull was itself a strategy that had to be taught and learned. Everything taken for granted today was new.

20 years later there are so many ways to trivialize any game. It may be hard to create this sense of chaos and wildness. But game devs aren't even trying... they are still reskinning wow hoping to win the lottery. Or they're taking cues from Las Vegas making slot machine games for casuals.

If you take 6 new players who never played any MMO and put them in a bare project 1999 server, and they don't read cheat sites (did you know that in the 90s most people thought looking at 'walkthrough' sites was cheating? This was true for all types of games.) they will get a taste of the wildness of EQ. So it's not entirely a social problem. The game itself still delivers a gameplay mechanic challenge and is still immersive to the imaginative types of people who had internet connections in 1999 and liked D&D and RPGs.

Zaide · Nov 19, 2017

So

forensic , you're saying you did not have a level 55+ Mage to CoTH you around zones for buffs or to distribute buffs in classic EQ circa 1999? Sad!

forensic · Nov 19, 2017

Zaide said:
So forensic , you're saying you did not have a level 55+ Mage to CoTH you around zones for buffs or to distribute buffs in classic EQ circa 1999? Sad!

and I didn't even have a manastone to trivialize resource management!

Can you believe that guy cited manastones as the reason why people didn't manage mana in EQ? Manastones are, to this day, the rarest tradeable clicky item in classic. Last I heard they still sell for $500+ on p99.

Even in 2001 people were selling manastones on ebay for thousands of dollars. I don't remember the exact prices but thousands of dollars for level 50 gear was not unheard of.

Ambiturner · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
I played a dark elf enchanter in 99. We were on dialup with 300+ pings. Many of us were using software rendering because we didn't have 3dfx voodoo or ATI Rage cards. Graphics cards were brand new, uncommon, and expensive. The 3d part of the game was in the middle of your screen at something like 640x480 with a huge opaque UI around the sides. You had to meditate constantly and couldn't see anything around you at those times.

The world felt large and wild. Chaotic. Dangerous. The only safety you had were city guards and other players.

Spells didn't say what they did on them. We didn't have 3rd party sites to read about them. Random people would sit in town or at entry areas in zones testing spells and discussing what they did and what they could be used for.

Talking about EQ in town was more fun than playing most games are today. It was like discussing D&D or Magic with friends at school, except now you had hundreds of friends. In 99 the internet was exciting because you could meet so many people.

Roger Wilco wasn't around yet so no voice chat even among your best friends. We would exchange ICQ numbers. The real hardcore people would get on IRC and learn the true secrets of the game.

Most people did not understand the purpose of Enchanters. People knew they eventually get crack and that was it. Few knew about mez or charm. There were not these huge gaming/twinking communities like today where people "help their friends" by trivializing the game for them from the very start. If you go play on p99 today you'll meet people who are new to EQ but have been twinked and powerleveled from day 1 by their "gaming community"... are they so stupid they think this is how anyone played in 99?

We would spend long periods of time chatting. I would explain to my groups that enchanters have this awesome spell called mez. I set up egg timers for haste because it only lasted 5 minutes and took 30% of my mana bar per cast. There were no perfect groups and definitely no perfect players or perfect knowledge or known perfect tactics.

There were many times people would lag out for minutes and come back to corpses. It was just normal. A good enchanter who didn't lag out while everyone else lagged out could keep the group alive. People would say stuff like "what do enchanters do again?" until half the group lagged out and the enchanter saved the day, or a bug makes a train stomp on you and AE Mez lets people get to the zoneline. If you saved your mana you could be a hero. If you got in there and nuked with chaotic feedback you could wipe your Crushbone group.

All of the 3d MMO tropes were invented in EQ. Pulling wasn't obvious, people had to learn about it. Standing in a safe area and letting someone pull was itself a strategy that had to be taught and learned. Everything taken for granted today was new.

20 years later there are so many ways to trivialize any game. It may be hard to create this sense of chaos and wildness. But game devs aren't even trying... they are still reskinning wow hoping to win the lottery. Or they're taking cues from Las Vegas making slot machine games for casuals.

If you take 6 new players who never played any MMO and put them in a bare project 1999 server, and they don't read cheat sites (did you know that in the 90s most people thought looking at 'walkthrough' sites was cheating? This was true for all types of games.) they will get a taste of the wildness of EQ. So it's not entirely a social problem. The game itself still delivers a gameplay mechanic challenge and is still immersive to the imaginative types of people who had internet connections in 1999 and liked D&D and RPGs.

A lot of words to just regurgitate the same exact things EQ fanboys have been gushing on about.

It still comes down you being in love with technical limitations and an era where not everything could be Google'd

Lunis · Nov 19, 2017

Convo gettin that QA experience

Skanda · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
and I didn't even have a manastone to trivialize resource management!

Can you believe that guy cited manastones as the reason why people didn't manage mana in EQ? Manastones are, to this day, the rarest tradeable clicky item in classic. Last I heard they still sell for $500+ on p99.

Even in 2001 people were selling manastones on ebay for thousands of dollars. I don't remember the exact prices but thousands of dollars for level 50 gear was not unheard of.

Apparently you are as bad at reading as you were at playing EQ.

zzeris · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
I played a dark elf enchanter in 99. We were on dialup with 300+ pings. Many of us were using software rendering because we didn't have 3dfx voodoo or ATI Rage cards. Graphics cards were brand new, uncommon, and expensive. The 3d part of the game was in the middle of your screen at something like 640x480 with a huge opaque UI around the sides. You had to meditate constantly and couldn't see anything around you at those times.

The world felt large and wild. Chaotic. Dangerous. The only safety you had were city guards and other players.

Spells didn't say what they did on them. We didn't have 3rd party sites to read about them. Random people would sit in town or at entry areas in zones testing spells and discussing what they did and what they could be used for.

Talking about EQ in town was more fun than playing most games are today. It was like discussing D&D or Magic with friends at school, except now you had hundreds of friends. In 99 the internet was exciting because you could meet so many people.

Roger Wilco wasn't around yet so no voice chat even among your best friends. We would exchange ICQ numbers. The real hardcore people would get on IRC and learn the true secrets of the game.

Most people did not understand the purpose of Enchanters. People knew they eventually get crack and that was it. Few knew about mez or charm. There were not these huge gaming/twinking communities like today where people "help their friends" by trivializing the game for them from the very start. If you go play on p99 today you'll meet people who are new to EQ but have been twinked and powerleveled from day 1 by their "gaming community"... are they so stupid they think this is how anyone played in 99?

We would spend long periods of time chatting. I would explain to my groups that enchanters have this awesome spell called mez. I set up egg timers for haste because it only lasted 5 minutes and took 30% of my mana bar per cast. There were no perfect groups and definitely no perfect players or perfect knowledge or known perfect tactics.

There were many times people would lag out for minutes and come back to corpses. It was just normal. A good enchanter who didn't lag out while everyone else lagged out could keep the group alive. People would say stuff like "what do enchanters do again?" until half the group lagged out and the enchanter saved the day, or a bug makes a train stomp on you and AE Mez lets people get to the zoneline. If you saved your mana you could be a hero. If you got in there and nuked with chaotic feedback you could wipe your Crushbone group.

All of the 3d MMO tropes were invented in EQ. Pulling wasn't obvious, people had to learn about it. Standing in a safe area and letting someone pull was itself a strategy that had to be taught and learned. Everything taken for granted today was new.

20 years later there are so many ways to trivialize any game. It may be hard to create this sense of chaos and wildness. But game devs aren't even trying... they are still reskinning wow hoping to win the lottery. Or they're taking cues from Las Vegas making slot machine games for casuals.

If you take 6 new players who never played any MMO and put them in a bare project 1999 server, and they don't read cheat sites (did you know that in the 90s most people thought looking at 'walkthrough' sites was cheating? This was true for all types of games.) they will get a taste of the wildness of EQ. So it's not entirely a social problem. The game itself still delivers a gameplay mechanic challenge and is still immersive to the imaginative types of people who had internet connections in 1999 and liked D&D and RPGs.

Excellent post about those early days. It was fun! It can't be replicated today. This is one of our primary arguments. How do you reinvent shitty internet, no walk throughs, piss poor video cards, a new design philosophy no one has seen yet? Now, do you think Pantheon will be that game? Not one iota. This is a Brad McQuaid game built on the foundation of his previous efforts. Just like WoW was built on EQ. You couldn't have the same amount of newness when certain things become standard. It's impossible and Pantheon will have certain parts that have become standard in games today. Now he can create spells with the same name, gear with the same name, etc and you can get a bit of nostalgia back but that's it. Yours is a nostalgia post and nothing's bringing back those days because those times are long gone. It's just like cowboys in the early 20th century couldn't bring back the wild west once it was settled. This genre is settled and that old dude doesn't even know how to do it differently and wouldn't if he could. I'll also add you are a different player than that time too. You know more, have better internet, etc.

As I said earlier, EQ was a great, unique experience in my life. It was still piss poorly made and operated compared to WoW. And it's no longer 1999.

forensic · Nov 19, 2017

zzeris said:
How do you reinvent shitty internet, no walk throughs, piss poor video cards, a new design philosophy no one has seen yet?

The reason we point out bad internet and slow PCs is because people will fire up p99 today and say "this game is easy I can swarm kite 150 guys at once"

EQ was hard at the time that's all we're saying. Tune the difficulty of games for modern hardware in a way that makes modern games harder and this will make the world feel more threatening and real. Dark Souls did this and people loved it.

The decade of the 00s was a constant dumbing down decade for game design. Everything got massively easier to try and reach the casual retard market. This has already started to turn around though.

There are only two major design issues without a proven solution:

1. How do you stop google and other informational resources from trivialising an RPG, both PvE and PvP. Games are way less fun when everyone is just copying perfect strats that have been determined by a simulator. This has even affected board games... people will now look up perfect strategies for every board game from Monopoly to Dominion. This ruins the fun.

2. How you fix the major social issues that were introduced by the "eternal september" of the growing internet. In the 90s there was a self-selected group of more nerdy, smarter people and that is a big part of what made it fun. Now every moron is on the internet and the smart people just want to escape them again. This makes MMOs terrible and pushes people to single player.

#1 is not easy to fix and I don't think Pantheon will fix it. Chronicles of Elyria has a "knowledge system" they are trying to use to make game knowledge something that is more part of your character's progression than something you just google. We'll have to wait and see if it works.

#2 is probably easier to solve... you just need to market your game to the right people and attract a more imaginative, RPG-like community while repelling the people that shitted up the entire RPG genre when Blizzard marketed to them. Diablo had a different fan base than games like D&D, King's Quest, Lucas Arts RPGs, Sierra's The Realm MMO or UO.

The other people who shat up the genre are the furries, transgenders and second lifers who use RPGs as cybersex backdrops. These people were a minority in EQ, but today they overwhelm all the RPG communities. Anything "roleplay" is immediately infiltrated by cybersex furries.

By slowing down gameplay (in reaction time not in tactical complexity), making it more turn based, more teamwork based, and tailoring their marketing and community management, a game could build a better community.

BoozeCube · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
The reason we point out bad internet and slow PCs is because people will fire up p99 today and say "this game is easy I can swarm kite 150 guys at once"

EQ was hard at the time that's all we're saying. Tune the difficulty of games for modern hardware in a way that makes modern games harder and this will make the world feel more threatening and real. Dark Souls did this and people loved it.

The decade of the 00s was a constant dumbing down decade for game design. Everything got massively easier to try and reach the casual retard market. This has already started to turn around though.

There are only two major design issues without a proven solution:

1. How do you stop google and other informational resources from trivialising an RPG, both PvE and PvP. Games are way less fun when everyone is just copying perfect strats that have been determined by a simulator. This has even affected board games... people will now look up perfect strategies for every board game from Monopoly to Dominion. This ruins the fun.

2. How you fix the major social issues that were introduced by the "eternal september" of the growing internet. In the 90s there was a self-selected group of more nerdy, smarter people and that is a big part of what made it fun. Now every moron is on the internet and the smart people just want to escape them again. This makes MMOs terrible and pushes people to single player.

#1 is not easy to fix and I don't think Pantheon will fix it. Chronicles of Elyria has a "knowledge system" they are trying to use to make game knowledge something that is more part of your character's progression than something you just google. We'll have to wait and see if it works.

#2 is probably easier to solve... you just need to market your game to the right people and attract a more imaginative, RPG-like community while repelling the people that shitted up the entire RPG genre when Blizzard marketed to them. Diablo had a different fan base than games like D&D, King's Quest, Lucas Arts RPGs, Sierra's The Realm MMO or UO.

The other people who shat up the genre are the furries, transgenders and second lifers who use RPGs as cybersex backdrops. These people were a minority in EQ, but today they overwhelm all the RPG communities. Anything "roleplay" is immediately infiltrated by cybersex furries.

By slowing down gameplay (in reaction time not in tactical complexity), making it more turn based, more teamwork based, and tailoring their marketing and community management, a game could build a better community.

Ok grandpa.

ninjarr · Nov 19, 2017

forensic said:
#1 is not easy to fix and I don't think Pantheon will fix it. Chronicles of Elyria has a "knowledge system" they are trying to use to make game knowledge something that is more part of your character's progression than something you just google. We'll have to wait and see if it works.

I think Dota2 has somewhat accomplished this by creating a lot of strategic agency and constantly introducing new tactics. It's a very, very hard problem to solve though, as even there eventually a meta evolves around an optimized strategy. Still, the game being hard and complex with a lot of naunce definitely keeps the problem in check.

The problem is that this sort of game design runs completely contrary to running a business. Same as your #2 point. As a business, you don't want to turn players away or raise the barrier to entry. I think a lot of the problems are sourced from the economics of game development.

jordanjax · Nov 19, 2017

I agree with a lot of that, but this is essentially a WOW fan board and many here are exactly the people you are blaming for the demise of RPGs so prepare yourself.

forensic said:
The reason we point out bad internet and slow PCs is because people will fire up p99 today and say "this game is easy I can swarm kite 150 guys at once"

EQ was hard at the time that's all we're saying. Tune the difficulty of games for modern hardware in a way that makes modern games harder and this will make the world feel more threatening and real. Dark Souls did this and people loved it.

The decade of the 00s was a constant dumbing down decade for game design. Everything got massively easier to try and reach the casual retard market. This has already started to turn around though.

There are only two major design issues without a proven solution:

1. How do you stop google and other informational resources from trivialising an RPG, both PvE and PvP. Games are way less fun when everyone is just copying perfect strats that have been determined by a simulator. This has even affected board games... people will now look up perfect strategies for every board game from Monopoly to Dominion. This ruins the fun.

2. How you fix the major social issues that were introduced by the "eternal september" of the growing internet. In the 90s there was a self-selected group of more nerdy, smarter people and that is a big part of what made it fun. Now every moron is on the internet and the smart people just want to escape them again. This makes MMOs terrible and pushes people to single player.

#1 is not easy to fix and I don't think Pantheon will fix it. Chronicles of Elyria has a "knowledge system" they are trying to use to make game knowledge something that is more part of your character's progression than something you just google. We'll have to wait and see if it works.

#2 is probably easier to solve... you just need to market your game to the right people and attract a more imaginative, RPG-like community while repelling the people that shitted up the entire RPG genre when Blizzard marketed to them. Diablo had a different fan base than games like D&D, King's Quest, Lucas Arts RPGs, Sierra's The Realm MMO or UO.

The other people who shat up the genre are the furries, transgenders and second lifers who use RPGs as cybersex backdrops. These people were a minority in EQ, but today they overwhelm all the RPG communities. Anything "roleplay" is immediately infiltrated by cybersex furries.

By slowing down gameplay (in reaction time not in tactical complexity), making it more turn based, more teamwork based, and tailoring their marketing and community management, a game could build a better community.

Dullahan · Nov 19, 2017

zzeris said:
Excellent post about those early days. It was fun! It can't be replicated today. This is one of our primary arguments. How do you reinvent shitty internet, no walk throughs, piss poor video cards, a new design philosophy no one has seen yet? Now, do you think Pantheon will be that game? Not one iota. This is a Brad McQuaid game built on the foundation of his previous efforts. Just like WoW was built on EQ. You couldn't have the same amount of newness when certain things become standard. It's impossible and Pantheon will have certain parts that have become standard in games today. Now he can create spells with the same name, gear with the same name, etc and you can get a bit of nostalgia back but that's it. Yours is a nostalgia post and nothing's bringing back those days because those times are long gone. It's just like cowboys in the early 20th century couldn't bring back the wild west once it was settled. This genre is settled and that old dude doesn't even know how to do it differently and wouldn't if he could. I'll also add you are a different player than that time too. You know more, have better internet, etc.

As I said earlier, EQ was a great, unique experience in my life. It was still piss poorly made and operated compared to WoW. And it's no longer 1999.

You won't be able to recreate all of those elements, but the problem is that no one is even trying to recreate the ones they can. Just having a game that doesn't hold your hand, where mobs are stronger than the player, where grouping is imperative, where death matters and creates tension, and where the UI doesn't reveal everything about every single item and ability is a good start. The problem is, no one is doing that. They're creating games, not worlds that promote discovery, discussion and immersion.

DickTrickle · Nov 19, 2017

jordanjax said:
I agree with a lot of that, but this is essentially a WOW fan board and many here are exactly the people you are blaming for the demise of RPGs so prepare yourself.

This is a wow fan board? You are fucking retarded. Do you know the history of this board? Hell, just look at the agnarr thread.

This forum started as the forum guild for the top raiding guild in EverQuest, FYI.

xzi · Nov 19, 2017

woah woah woah

we still have a forum guild in wow because we're fanboys and we're easily the top heroic raiding guild on fridays on Hyjal

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Molten Core Raider

Trakanon Raider

I'm Amod too!

King Turd of Shit Hill

what Suineg set it to

Trakanon Raider

Molten Core Raider

TLP Idealist

Molten Core Raider

Ssraeszha Raider

Blackwing Lair Raider

I'm Amod too!

King Turd of Shit Hill

Molten Core Raider

The Wokest

Golden Knight of the Realm

Trakanon Raider

Golden Knight of the Realm

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler

Mouthbreather