Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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forensic

Molten Core Raider
25
56
Those quest addons didn't exist at release.

Questhelper was the first one that did that and didn't come out until long, long after WoW's release. Thottbot and wowhead data was also very incomplete and required user input. Thottbot data was even straight up wrong in many cases.

You're wrong.

It wasn't long after. Before QuestHelper there was TravelingTomTom. This was in 2005. This stuff just didn't get popular until TBC.

The best ones were private and never made public. The main reason they weren't made public was because the people who made them thought that Blizzard would instantly ban or patch them and maybe ban the people who made them. Naive!

We were used to the treatment of SOE and others. Blizzard turned out to not only NOT ban them but they didn't even patch this stuff. They didn't even patch the automatic macro stuff or decursive! These were the weakest of the private scripts!

Questhelper was the first POPULAR public one.

The people coming from other games also thought that the competitive advantage of leveling alts or of raid automation might be worth something, especially in BGs. This stuff existed at launch and was kept quiet in anticipation of using it in guild vs guild battlegrounds. Turned out that people just left for other games because battlegrounds and PvE were not fun.

Thottbot from beta used both datamining and an application that would run on people's computers to record info. It would generate a graphic with the coordinates of every place a mob had been seen, allowing you to trace the mob's exact path. While there were some comparable things in EQ they were either private and considered cheating or they were not as user friendly so didn't ruin the community.

Blizzard made an exploitable game but more important was the way these shitty features led to a bad community.
 
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forensic

Molten Core Raider
25
56
I personally know one author who, in late 2004, wrote a quest guide script that would take you from waypoint to waypoint showing you an arrow on your screen just as QuestHelper does today. You didn't have to look at the map just follow the dumb arrow.

This was never shared outside the guild. It was really easy to make this stuff because Blizzard provided the APIs. We thought if they found out they would patch it and maybe ban us, even though we were just using the APIs and scripting language they gave us.
 
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Khane

Got something right about marriage
20,346
14,011
TomTom never gave you the coordinates, you had to put them in yourself and it would just give you an arrow. All these questhelper like addons were just private and you knew about them huh? If they were private and never made public how the fuck did they ruin the game? Nobody even knew about them except your super elite guild!

Leveling alts offers more competitive advantage in WoW than it ever did in EQ and it's only gotten more-so over time. Pretending stacking certain classes for certain fights even in MC wasn't a thing proves your ignorance. You should see what it takes to get world firsts in the game now. It's ridiculous.

Yea thottbot used an application that ran on people's computers to gather data, ya know... user input. Just like the other sites mentioned.

Oh people left WoW because it wasn't fun huh? Interesting considering its sub numbers.

You nerds need to find something worthy of complaining about. Complain about how WoW introduced Daily Questing... which is the worst fucking thing ever added to online gaming. And everyone else jumped on that ship. Talk about how WoW added ARPG style RNG loot systems to MMOs and everyone seems to want to follow suit. Talk about how WoW introduced artificially blocking content through impassable time gates (though maybe that's still better than just leaving shit broken so you can't get passed it). You've got a system in place where even though content is finished in WoW you still can't access it because it requires 21k reputation and you're only allowed to gain 500 per day. All that shit sucks but instead you focus on things that actually made the games more enjoyable, like a GPS.

I wonder if you guys actually really do hate it or you're just nitpicking for the sake of being a contrarian. Or would you actually like to have to go back to a paper map to find your way somewhere in the real world? Conveniences we would bitch about doing without in everyday life are things you want removed from your fantasy world? You kidding me? Why don't you guys open a grocery store that has no aisle signs. Just let people figure out where the shit they need is by having to wander around the store. Make sure you make the super market big so you can really get the most out of exploring it.
 
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forensic

Molten Core Raider
25
56
TomTom never gave you the coordinates, you had to put them in yourself and it would just give you an arrow. All these questhelper like addons were just private and you knew about them huh? If they were private and never made public how the fuck did they ruin the game? Nobody even knew about them except your super elite guild!

Leveling alts offers more competitive advantage in WoW than it ever did in EQ and it's only gotten more-so over time. Pretending stacking certain classes for certain fights even in MC wasn't a thing proves your ignorance. You should see what it takes to get world firsts in the game now. It's ridiculous.

TravelingTomTom != TomTom. But even TomTom had built in ability to use other people's coords. It just didn't really matter that much because leveling in wow was so fast and people tended to enjoy it more than EQ.

I agree that QuestHelper didn't ruin wow in 2004-2005. It ruined wow in 2007 and later. But the fact that Blizzard allowed QuestHelper at all was my point.. it shows their flaw. This should have been banned and patched out along with decursive, dps macros and all the rest of it. They should have removed what they could and banned people who used anything else.

The radar should have never existed. The blizzard world map is OK and map revealing addons should have been banned.

The more you stop this stuff the better the experience. You can't stop the hardcore cheaters but you can suppress the masses and that's what Blizzard failed to do and in doing so they failed to create the sense of scale, mystery, and complexity that games before them had.

Yea thottbot used an application that ran on people's computers to gather data, ya know... user input. Just like the other sites mentioned.

Big difference between a program that automatically harvests data and human hand crafted data. The better those sites get the more they hurt the game, but people don't even acknowledge this anymore, and that's why I am mentioning it.

You nerds need to find something worthy of complaining about. Complain about how WoW introduced Daily Questing... which is the worst fucking thing ever added to online gaming. And everyone else jumped on that ship. Talk about how WoW added ARPG style RNG loot systems to MMOs and everyone seems to want to follow suit. Talk about how WoW introduced artificially blocking content through impassable time gates (though maybe that's still better than just leaving shit broken so you can't get passed it). You've got a system in place where even though content is finished in WoW you still can't access it because it requires 21k reputation and you're only allowed to gain 500 per day. All that shit sucks but instead you focus on things that actually made the games more enjoyable, like a GPS.

I wonder if you guys actually really do hate it or you're just nitpicking for the sake of being a contrarian. Or would you actually like to have to go back to a paper map to find your way somewhere in the real world? Conveniences we would bitch about doing without in everyday life are things you want removed from your fantasy world? You kidding me? Why don't you guys open a grocery store that has no aisle signs. Just let people figure out where the shit they need is by having to wander around the store. Make sure you make the super market big so you can really get the most out of exploring it.

You think it's complaining but I think we're discussing the stuff we liked about pre-WOW mmos and how they could be regained.

Everyone knows dailies are stupid. Everyone knows auto-queue instances are boring (actually they still are more fun than raiding Molten Core... ).

I really think maps need to be restricted. People should have to navigate using in game abilities ("pathfinding"), ingame knowledge, roads, landmarks, and other people. This is achievable.... in the extreme case you could design cryptographically secured topology that requires in game progression to navigate. Like the Lost Woods in Zelda.

The wow radar was immersion breaking and made you look at it all the time instead of the art assets. I understand why they did it, but it helped kill the genre.

Same goes for cooldown button mashing.
 
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forensic

Molten Core Raider
25
56
And if you want to make the "but wow is so popular so it must be good" argument...

FPS and sports games are more popular than RPGs. They're different genres. WOW and clones changed the experience so severely that its like a new genre... maybe a more successful genre... but not as fun for those of us who liked it.

WOW moved the MMORPG genre so far toward Halo that it killed the stuff that once defined RPGs. It has the superficial characteristics of MMORPGs like levels and swords and spells but it is lacking something more essential which is the shared experience of being immersed in an alien, unknown, dangerous and wild world.

Radar is probably the #1 way to kill immersion, but tons of these other little things hurt too:

* 3rd person
* short fights
* weak mobs
* datamining
* addons
* on-the-rails questing instead of a sandbox
* disincentive for grouping
* instances
* QuestHelper
* Simulators
* autoplay macros
* PvP without even coin loot
* PvE that is overly scripted and gated
* RTS style community
* no death penalty
* easy travel that shrinks the size of the world
* too much information in the UI like spell tooltips, too statistical and explicit
 
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Nirgon

Log Wizard
13,780
21,714
I'd say Thottbot and Zam at their respective times are a pretty fair comparison, errors and all.
 
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Ambiturner

Ssraeszha Raider
16,043
19,530
Jesus forensic, you've turned into one of the shittiest posters. Outside of writing multiple novel sized posts with nobody posting in between, a lot of your shit is just plain wrong.

With other stuff you're cherry picking eras and ignoring that EQ did the same things you're bitching about. You're a like qwerty without all the profanity which was his one redeeming quality
 
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Rhanyn

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,032
1,427
* 3rd person - while I would be on board for a first person only MMO depending on how it is done, there is nothing wrong with 3rd person view for immersion purposes. It's actually rather nice to be able to see my character, their gear progression, mount, particle effects, etc

* short fights - can be either or, depending on combat style and what the intended challenge level of combat is supposed to be. Honestly, most MMO gamers I know love pushing boundaries, and go after Heroic targets solo or duo, try to 2/3 man instances, or 1/2 group raid content if they are looking for more challenge.

* weak mobs - really just an extension of short fights in a way. I definitely think heroic or higher content should be lethal if not approached correctly, and that danger should be pervasive through a game in general.

* datamining - it is what it is. It will happen regardless of whether it is there or not, there is no way to stop a game from being consumed and regurgitated for the masses in this day and age.

* addons - there is a line here that shouldn't be crossed, anything that takes over actions, or in essence plays a part of the game for you is detrimental, but addons and the fact they often add long requested features or simple quality of life improvements that devs never get around to makes them a highly welcomed feature in most games.

* on-the-rails questing instead of a sandbox - this I agree with completely, sandbox trumps on rails content, but there is a time and a place for both, even within the same game.

* disincentive for grouping - I don't feel like I've ever played an MMO that actually actively discouraged grouping in any way, maybe some examples would help, but I strongly believe any good MMO will capitalize on both solo and group play. I do believe that group and raid should be inherently more rewarding, but it should be looked at in terms of effort/time and high quality items should be allowed through solo content that utilizes large quest chains or multi step challenges to work towards a larger goal. The way there were multiple unique items in EQ for instance, some of which could be acquired solo (sometimes depending on class), that were meaningful items, not always an upgrade or best in slot, but still useful for clickies or niche content. Regardless of level of play, there should be rewarding content, and rewards that make you want to hoard items, or collectibles, or house decorations, trophies, etc etc

* instances - it has become over utilized and that does remove immersion, but it shouldn't be something that is completely removed, rather used in the appropriate places while leaving contested areas readily available.

* QuestHelper - while I remember my binders full of printed out quests, Epic walkthroughs, spell list and buying guides, etc for EQ, having a quest log/journal whatever you want to call it, is a must. Most games have far to much content to try and micro manage, and you are looking at the current generation and all subsequent being accustomed to (or even entitled) this kind of in game commodity.

* Simulators - never used one beyond spec calculators etc, but I don't see the harm in something that the only intent from is to make people better at their chosen class/profession. Whether it is on a parse dummy in game, a test simulator, or you are beating up grey heroic mobs for practice with little to no danger, it's the same thing and will happen in a game regardless.

* autoplay macros - covered this in my speal about addons.

* PvP without even coin loot - I don't pvp enough to have an opinion other than that I've yet to find a pvp game that has made me care about pvp.

* PvE that is overly scripted and gated - both have their places, but over using it can be detrimental, as can be said for a lot of things. That being said, both are a basic concept of gaming. Being too low level for content is technically a form of gating etc.

* RTS style community - I don't really have any perspective on this.

* no death penalty - needs to be there, would like to see a more balanced way of implementing it, and have zero problems admitting, I have no idea how to do that or what a good method would be. Fuck losing everything you've worked for because Nagafen planted his fat ass on top of your head after your pug raid wiped.

* easy travel that shrinks the size of the world - I'm fine with easy or fast travel options, they do need to be in moderation depending on how they impact the size and scope of the world they are incorporated into, but port classes should still be something that are useful and oft requested for that purpose, regardless of what built in travel options exist. This really also depends on the game, a game that has a wonderfully immersive world, that makes me feel like travel is worthwhile and not demeaning, less is needed. A giant time sink sand trap, please give me fast travel, all the fast travel.

* too much information in the UI like spell tooltips, too statistical and explicit - knowing what your abilities do and to what degree, is a basic part of game play. I don't feel that denying the player base access to the fundamental way their class functions is a meaning or pragmatic way of creating immersion.
 
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Korrupt

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,832
1,228
And if you want to make the "but wow is so popular so it must be good" argument...

FPS and sports games are more popular than RPGs. They're different genres. WOW and clones changed the experience so severely that its like a new genre... maybe a more successful genre... but not as fun for those of us who liked it.

WOW moved the MMORPG genre so far toward Halo that it killed the stuff that once defined RPGs. It has the superficial characteristics of MMORPGs like levels and swords and spells but it is lacking something more essential which is the shared experience of being immersed in an alien, unknown, dangerous and wild world.

Radar is probably the #1 way to kill immersion, but tons of these other little things hurt too:

* 3rd person
* short fights
* weak mobs
* datamining
* addons
* on-the-rails questing instead of a sandbox
* disincentive for grouping
* instances
* QuestHelper
* Simulators
* autoplay macros
* PvP without even coin loot
* PvE that is overly scripted and gated
* RTS style community
* no death penalty
* easy travel that shrinks the size of the world
* too much information in the UI like spell tooltips, too statistical and explicit

upload_2017-11-21_16-10-55.jpeg
 
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xzi

Mouthbreather
7,526
6,763
If they can keep this high of quality work go into all of their buildings or at least major cities I'll be pretty impressed. It makes me want to check out every single building.
 
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Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,904
4,751
I for one welcome the streamers who like to do live footage of their open word raids. There is nothing like watching some guild clear Plane of Growth for 4 to 6 hours only to walk in at the end and steal Tunare in 10 minutes.
 
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Dullahan

Golden Knight of the Realm
259
256
Stream was awesome. For those who want an mmorpg where the world and little details matter, this will give you hope. The downside is that so much attention to detail makes you worry the game won't release until 2030.
 
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Mick

<Gold Donor>
862
535
here is just the stream for those that havent seen it yet. Pre-alpha access soon.
 
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BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
51,571
302,688
here is just the stream for those that havent seen it yet. Pre-alpha access soon.


I started to watch this shit and for like the first 5 minutes these inventors are talking about grass... Pass

I wish they would pick a different streamer.
 
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zzeris

King Turd of Shit Hill
<Gold Donor>
20,302
86,120
And if you want to make the "but wow is so popular so it must be good" argument...

FPS and sports games are more popular than RPGs. They're different genres. WOW and clones changed the experience so severely that its like a new genre... maybe a more successful genre... but not as fun for those of us who liked it.

WOW moved the MMORPG genre so far toward Halo that it killed the stuff that once defined RPGs. It has the superficial characteristics of MMORPGs like levels and swords and spells but it is lacking something more essential which is the shared experience of being immersed in an alien, unknown, dangerous and wild world.

Radar is probably the #1 way to kill immersion, but tons of these other little things hurt too:

* 3rd person
* short fights
* weak mobs
* datamining
* addons
* on-the-rails questing instead of a sandbox
* disincentive for grouping
* instances
* QuestHelper
* Simulators
* autoplay macros
* PvP without even coin loot
* PvE that is overly scripted and gated
* RTS style community
* no death penalty
* easy travel that shrinks the size of the world
* too much information in the UI like spell tooltips, too statistical and explicit

Not quoting all of your stuff but..

EQ also had immersion breaking features. They had 3rd person. Some short fights.
  1. weak mobs
  2. datamining
  3. instances
  4. PvE that is gated
  5. easy travel thru ports, J-boots, etc
  6. bad graphics
  7. falling thru the world
  8. camping of mobs
  9. mobs appearing out of nowhere
  10. trains of mobs
  11. loading screens
On your other complaints, you want cryptographically secured topology and other tools implemented from a game that doesn't have the resources of the original EQ, much less WoW. Where are they getting that?
 
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forensic

Molten Core Raider
25
56
On your other complaints, you want cryptographically secured topology and other tools implemented from a game that doesn't have the resources of the original EQ, much less WoW. Where are they getting that?

The genre must be competitive with counterpart single player rpgs to be respectable. This genre is not even close anymore.

pre-wow era: 1995-2005
Final Fantasy, Baldur's Gate 1/2, System Shock 1/2, Diablo 1/2, Icewind Dale, Ocarina of Time
vs.
The Realm, EverQuest 1/2, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1/2, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes, Eve Online

Look at how much deeper EQ was than a lot of single player RPGs. It even had better graphics than many. MMOs of this time were often more complex than single player games.

post-wow era: 2005-2015
Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, Oblivion, Skyrim, BioShock 3/Infinite, Fallout 3, Witcher 1/2/3, South Park: Stick of Truth

vs.
Lord of the Rings Online, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, SW:TOR, GW2, Diablo 3, Firefall, Wildstar, TESO, Black Desert Online, Conan Exiles

What happened?

The starting point for mmogs should be a gripping world and fun gameplay that is at par with modern rpgs. Then you add multiplayer to juice it up.

Pantheon doesn't have the budget to compete because the genre was murdered. Pantheon looks like they're starting from pre-alpha Vanguard.
 
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