Korrupt
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 4,832
- 1,228
Take a step back and look around at the most successful mmo of all time?
- 2
Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
- Thread starter gogojira_sl
- Start date
Take a step back and look around at the most successful mmo of all time?
Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 4,925
- 6,938
Lol, McDonalds is the most successful restaurant of all time. So by your logic you hate all other restaurants and, think only McDonalds is good. And that all other restaurants should only copy McDonalds. Lol, yeah right. Try again.
edit: Oh and Mobile is about to kill all PC games. Why are you even here? Don't you have a phone?
- 4
- 1
- 56,657
- 340,171
Muligan
Trakanon Raider
- 3,261
- 919
I think it's a little unfair, even though I tend to lean towards the defense of EQ among WoW fanbois, to say WoW was/is a copy/paste of EQ. I don't think the formula was much of a secret and many of the features were obvious. Table-tops, MUDs, etc. brought on EQ and EQ brought on WoW. Sure, Blizzard brought in some EQ people and took their insights into consideration but I think the progression was intuitive. We went from pen and paper, to text-based questing, to an interface. To be within the genre, there's going to be some overlap and I still hold EQ accountable even to this day not bring their own stuff up to date. I never played Runescape but I have to tip my hat to them for taking their entire game and overhauling it. I'm not saying it's for the better but EQ and EQ2 could have spent their own time and money to keep their games some what relevant than thinking if we cover crap with newer crap it will smell better.
EQ open the doors for several games by proving there was a market to tap into and money to be made but they were far from the first in terms of the design and thinking. They just more less was the first ones to take a step that received mainstream attention. I still give a lot of credit to UO and even games such as Diablo who played an important role fathering MMO ideas.
EQ open the doors for several games by proving there was a market to tap into and money to be made but they were far from the first in terms of the design and thinking. They just more less was the first ones to take a step that received mainstream attention. I still give a lot of credit to UO and even games such as Diablo who played an important role fathering MMO ideas.
- 1
Korrupt
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 4,832
- 1,228
I dont think anything is good or better but you said success...... One restaurant is still profitable, open, and growing and the others are closed.
- 519
- 210
Actually, the death knell for normal players (non hardcore raiders) came with Planes of Power and the artificial segmentation of player population by (1) gated experience/leveling zones or (2) the fuckd up group balance due to the charm exp using low level pets as DPS. As soon as WoW came out all the casual slacker players left in droves, already sick of being artificially blocked from exping in the best POP zones because of raid progression blocks.
- 4
- 1
- 56,657
- 340,171
Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
- 8,456
- 3,577
I doubt this mattered to as many as you think. Yes it sucked a lot, but I dont think it affected the casuals so much. It mainly sucked for the raiding guilds when you needed to go back and do shit-tier content to flag up new recruits.
- 1
I stopped playing EQ when Gates released. my Wizard was in full PoP gear, and I was getting waffle stomped in two seconds in the new Gates content. I was pissed. I played for a little while, hoping it would get better, but it didn't. I think I came back briefly when OOW was released, but by that time, my bags were already packed, and my time in Norrath was over. I had no regrets. It was the best gaming experience I've ever had. I loved the dungeons and the zones, I loved the raids, I loved my guild, and my friends, and I loved my character. I never went back because the years had passed, and that beautiful, old game was now a horrible, ugly hag. The combat was clunky and hideous, as were the graphics. It's like seeing your high school sweetheart 7 or 8 years later, and now she's 40 pounds heavier, and wearing mom jeans. Somethings are better left behind.
I played WoW right up until TBC was released. I enjoyed it for what it was: a quest hub with a few hidden gems in it. I never felt really attached to the game in any meaningful way, but still had fun leveling up, and raiding. I never wanted to go back, just like I don't want to go back and play EQ. What I would really like is a new MMO that is fun to play, and that I can take away fond memories from year later, hopefully playing alongside some of the people on this forum. I'm hopeful that Pantheon is that game, mainly because there ain't shit else coming down the pipe. If Pantheon fails, I don't see another game even on the horizon that I would be interested in playing.
I played WoW right up until TBC was released. I enjoyed it for what it was: a quest hub with a few hidden gems in it. I never felt really attached to the game in any meaningful way, but still had fun leveling up, and raiding. I never wanted to go back, just like I don't want to go back and play EQ. What I would really like is a new MMO that is fun to play, and that I can take away fond memories from year later, hopefully playing alongside some of the people on this forum. I'm hopeful that Pantheon is that game, mainly because there ain't shit else coming down the pipe. If Pantheon fails, I don't see another game even on the horizon that I would be interested in playing.
- 2
- 27,645
- 43,085
Yeah I never really got that same attachment to WoW like I did with EQ. To me it felt plastic, spoon fed content for the plebs. I actually missed camping a while into WoW having to constantly run around from hub to hub. Raids were definitely better, but at that point they should have been with better scripting and better overall engine. As the idea of raids became something more than in EQ.
The worst thing I hated about WoW was the lack of secrets, lack of secret placeholders and lack of mini bosses. And the items all pretty much sucked, the old +3 joke. If your stupid quests did not take you there, there was no fucking reason to explore anything. Yeah, yeah I know there was elites in the wild, but they were the same plastic bullshit with same plastic +3 loot tables. Aside the few handmade raid exotics, there was nothing really special in WoW.
Only thing I really enjoyed in WoW while I played was the addition of PvP battlegrounds. Man that was truly revolutionary at the time. CTF, Zone controll and my favorite Alterac Valley was all I spent time in until all that got old eventually too. Those AVs back in the day were truly epic feeling fights. Shit, even when they fixed them right before TBC era, if I remember correctly, they were still good.
But even then they began to make passes though the game to "normalize" everything. gone were the special pets for the huntards, gone were the cool weapons and skills that made certain classes stand out, like Shamans and Warriors. Instead of keeping that shit in and building on it, they decided to nerf everything, normalize it to fit their spreadsheet designed combat and +3 item economy.
Like I said, plastic, thats what it felt like.
The worst thing I hated about WoW was the lack of secrets, lack of secret placeholders and lack of mini bosses. And the items all pretty much sucked, the old +3 joke. If your stupid quests did not take you there, there was no fucking reason to explore anything. Yeah, yeah I know there was elites in the wild, but they were the same plastic bullshit with same plastic +3 loot tables. Aside the few handmade raid exotics, there was nothing really special in WoW.
Only thing I really enjoyed in WoW while I played was the addition of PvP battlegrounds. Man that was truly revolutionary at the time. CTF, Zone controll and my favorite Alterac Valley was all I spent time in until all that got old eventually too. Those AVs back in the day were truly epic feeling fights. Shit, even when they fixed them right before TBC era, if I remember correctly, they were still good.
But even then they began to make passes though the game to "normalize" everything. gone were the special pets for the huntards, gone were the cool weapons and skills that made certain classes stand out, like Shamans and Warriors. Instead of keeping that shit in and building on it, they decided to nerf everything, normalize it to fit their spreadsheet designed combat and +3 item economy.
Like I said, plastic, thats what it felt like.
Last edited:
- 5
- 1
Weird, I have a lot of nostalgia for Vanilla WoW precisely because it wasn't spoon fed and you didn't necessarily just go hub to hub like you do in modern WoW. You could, but there were tons of side paths in vanilla for both Alliance and Horde that many people never did. There were tons of side quest for special clickie items that many people never completed and never even knew about. There were elaborate quests for things like the UBRS key, the Warlock/Paladin class mounts, Cleric epic staff out of Molten Core. There were genuine "secret" epic quests like the Quel'serrar quest.
WoW was definitely more guided than Classic thru Luclin era EQ, but I don't really remember it like you describe at all. BC was much more linear and bread-crumby, and subsequent expansions continued that trend until about MoP, at which point the whole game felt like you were actually locked onto a rail system with no alternate paths.
A lot of WoW dungeons were also non-linear and non-intuitive to clear out, and had all kinds of content that wasn't frequently done. Like farming the Postmaster in Stratholme, there's no guide in-game or anything that even tells you how to summon him, and there's no map or anything showing you what to do. Blackrock Depths / Stratholme / Scholomance / Scarlet Monastery are some of the best dungeons ever made in any MMO.
Honestly too, the quest system in Vanilla WoW replaced rote grinding in EQ, where you often stood in place for hours at a time killing the exact same mob, quests for xp were a refreshing change in WoW to be frank. I also think many people have weird rose-colored glasses with EQ that they never took off (for example they remember the best quests in EQ and forget most EQ quests were horrible run from A to B quests or give me 4 orc belts 1000x), probably because EQ basically became a dead MMO so there's maybe an intellectual desire to protect it, whereas WoW is still super popular so fun to bash, i don't know. Modern WoW just isn't very fun, but when Vanilla launched it felt like EQ made by people that were actually good at making video games, while EQ felt like people that liked MUDs but who were bad at making video games slapping shit together with duct tape. I still have a lot of nostalgia for EQ and even play it on TLP, but it's honestly a trash game and I regularly question my decision making for playing it.
WoW was definitely more guided than Classic thru Luclin era EQ, but I don't really remember it like you describe at all. BC was much more linear and bread-crumby, and subsequent expansions continued that trend until about MoP, at which point the whole game felt like you were actually locked onto a rail system with no alternate paths.
A lot of WoW dungeons were also non-linear and non-intuitive to clear out, and had all kinds of content that wasn't frequently done. Like farming the Postmaster in Stratholme, there's no guide in-game or anything that even tells you how to summon him, and there's no map or anything showing you what to do. Blackrock Depths / Stratholme / Scholomance / Scarlet Monastery are some of the best dungeons ever made in any MMO.
Honestly too, the quest system in Vanilla WoW replaced rote grinding in EQ, where you often stood in place for hours at a time killing the exact same mob, quests for xp were a refreshing change in WoW to be frank. I also think many people have weird rose-colored glasses with EQ that they never took off (for example they remember the best quests in EQ and forget most EQ quests were horrible run from A to B quests or give me 4 orc belts 1000x), probably because EQ basically became a dead MMO so there's maybe an intellectual desire to protect it, whereas WoW is still super popular so fun to bash, i don't know. Modern WoW just isn't very fun, but when Vanilla launched it felt like EQ made by people that were actually good at making video games, while EQ felt like people that liked MUDs but who were bad at making video games slapping shit together with duct tape. I still have a lot of nostalgia for EQ and even play it on TLP, but it's honestly a trash game and I regularly question my decision making for playing it.
- 3
Mat'hir Uth Gan
Trakanon Raider
- 341
- 1,077
I loved EQ1, and I loved Vanilla WoW. Loved them both. Thought both were incredible games. Played both for years. Left WoW before TBC for Vanguard's beta. When Vanguard launched as an unplayable bust, I went to EQ2 for a couple years. My wife loved that game, that's her favorite. And at that point, it was pretty polished and fun, I guess they fixed the crap it had been at launch. Eventually went back to WoW during Lich King, but it was a pure solo experience at that point and full of daily quests, I did not like it. And that was it for me. Played some EQ1 on progression servers here and there, but I didn't like the changes made to them either, it was like a fake version of what EQ1 was. I have zero hope that Blizzard will do the progression servers right for Classic WoW either.
- 1
Khane
Got something right about marriage
- 21,281
- 15,207
Things I would like to see make a comeback:
1) Twinking. Maybe not every item but at least some high level items should be tradeable and usable at level 1 to overpower the fuck out of your alts. This is one of the most fun experiences in an MMO and something I sorely miss. Developers, and to a lesser extent players who pretend this is bad for the game can kiss my ass. You're wrong and you should learn how to have fun.
2) Utility driven gameplay. Stop making everything about going faster. It would be nice to have utility centric classes that can really shape how you move through a dungeon rather than the current WoW style where utility is wanted but DPS is more important. You have to go fast or you won't beat your timer. Control isn't really paramount in MMOs anymore. It's necessary but only to the degree that you've controlled the chaos of going as fast as possible just enough to not wipe.
Things I would like to see gone, never to return:
1) Daily/Weekly quest/content. The single worst thing to ever happen to gaming across any genre. Get your chores done for the day/week and do your homework and then maybe you can go play. If there's enough time. I'm quite sick of game developers acting like game parents.
2) Bloated, overly modifiable UIs. I'm great with being able to cosmetically alter the UI to suit personal taste. Putting core functionality into a UI and letting mods essentially become IDEs for the game you are playing is way overboard. I want to look at the gameworld while I am playing, not intently study timers, warnings and cooldowns to get the information I need to succeed.
3) Mini-games within encounters. I want to play my character, I don't want to play some stupid version of fantasy basketball or take control of a slow as shit siege mount with 2 action buttons. I chose my class for a reason, don't make me jump through stupid hoops mid encounter to beat dungeon/raid content.
1) Twinking. Maybe not every item but at least some high level items should be tradeable and usable at level 1 to overpower the fuck out of your alts. This is one of the most fun experiences in an MMO and something I sorely miss. Developers, and to a lesser extent players who pretend this is bad for the game can kiss my ass. You're wrong and you should learn how to have fun.
2) Utility driven gameplay. Stop making everything about going faster. It would be nice to have utility centric classes that can really shape how you move through a dungeon rather than the current WoW style where utility is wanted but DPS is more important. You have to go fast or you won't beat your timer. Control isn't really paramount in MMOs anymore. It's necessary but only to the degree that you've controlled the chaos of going as fast as possible just enough to not wipe.
Things I would like to see gone, never to return:
1) Daily/Weekly quest/content. The single worst thing to ever happen to gaming across any genre. Get your chores done for the day/week and do your homework and then maybe you can go play. If there's enough time. I'm quite sick of game developers acting like game parents.
2) Bloated, overly modifiable UIs. I'm great with being able to cosmetically alter the UI to suit personal taste. Putting core functionality into a UI and letting mods essentially become IDEs for the game you are playing is way overboard. I want to look at the gameworld while I am playing, not intently study timers, warnings and cooldowns to get the information I need to succeed.
3) Mini-games within encounters. I want to play my character, I don't want to play some stupid version of fantasy basketball or take control of a slow as shit siege mount with 2 action buttons. I chose my class for a reason, don't make me jump through stupid hoops mid encounter to beat dungeon/raid content.
- 23
- 3
Sevens
Log Wizard
- 7,600
- 24,184
- 2
Hosix
All labs matter!
- 4,737
- 6,647
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
- 1,887
- 750
..Is heirloom gear really ANY different than twinking the fuck out of an alt?
Aside from heirloom gear being extremely easy to obtain?
Aside from heirloom gear being extremely easy to obtain?
Big_w_powah
Trakanon Raider
- 1,887
- 750
To cover Khane's other points.
Full blown utility classes SHOULD come back, and be EXTREMELY powerful like in EQ. Yes, EQ had a broken ass fucking balance between classes. BUT, utility-focused classes should be a major point of gameplay and in many cases the choice between "moar deeps" and "utility" should be one that has you weigh what your group already has and be a real decision; You can't do that unless utility classes have REALLY powerful utility to compensate for a lack of damage.
Daily/Weekly stuff, I'm torn on. Having them be blatantly required as basically upkeep is pants on head retarded, but there's a middle ground to be had I think
Modifiable UI to the extent of WoW I agree should go by the wayside.
Mini-games in encounters? I'm fucking fine with if its done right; It allows for flexibility in encounter design in a game with classes built heavily around utility; We have an encounter that doesnt use any control. We have a control heavy class. Well, guess what? Instead of throwing in bullshit adds that just have to be mez'd the entire encounter just cause, we can come up with a more interesting mechanic that requires a "vehicle" or some such that the control class can be assigned to.
Admittedly, better class balance/design can overcome the need for that.
Full blown utility classes SHOULD come back, and be EXTREMELY powerful like in EQ. Yes, EQ had a broken ass fucking balance between classes. BUT, utility-focused classes should be a major point of gameplay and in many cases the choice between "moar deeps" and "utility" should be one that has you weigh what your group already has and be a real decision; You can't do that unless utility classes have REALLY powerful utility to compensate for a lack of damage.
Daily/Weekly stuff, I'm torn on. Having them be blatantly required as basically upkeep is pants on head retarded, but there's a middle ground to be had I think
Modifiable UI to the extent of WoW I agree should go by the wayside.
Mini-games in encounters? I'm fucking fine with if its done right; It allows for flexibility in encounter design in a game with classes built heavily around utility; We have an encounter that doesnt use any control. We have a control heavy class. Well, guess what? Instead of throwing in bullshit adds that just have to be mez'd the entire encounter just cause, we can come up with a more interesting mechanic that requires a "vehicle" or some such that the control class can be assigned to.
Admittedly, better class balance/design can overcome the need for that.
- 2
Flipmode
EQOA Refugee
- 2,102
- 337
I don’t know if any of you played EQOA (PS2 version of EQ), but their version of the Enc class was far different from EQ1. We had buffs. We could Mez. We could charm. But mana regen was a much more active duty. We had to actively manage the mana of the group. It was possible to suck and the group be oom. When you had a good one in your group, you instantly knew it. It was like being a healer, but for mana. And since we didn’t have a mana bar, that made it interesting. I really enjoyed that class. Make utility classes interesting and you don’t necessarily have to create encounters around them.
- 2