Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I actually feel you are missing a large chunk of your most likely audience. There are a ton of people who never played MMOs pre-wow that pine for the Vanilla and or BC era wow that was basically a more polished EQ,

They have the same complaints about modern mmos, and the same wants in future mmos. Unfortunately there is no rerolled.org for these guys but I feel the pantheon team and it's supporters would be wise to reach out to them... much more upside here then eqmac

Also the Dark Souls crowd does have potential for this. Dark Souls key points are a RPG with super challenging gameplay that requires skill and dedication. Yes many of this crowd will not be interest but many will and it's a huge crowd.

Also a dev or Brad should go on Something Awful, it's a huge forum with an audience that would likely be receptive to the game you want to make. Plus it would flatter their ego, they really like to believe they are a forum of elite posting special snowflakes on the best forum on the internets.

SA thread isup and runningand Brad has already been posting there.

And don't send Tad over there please. He's a nice boy and all but I don't want him having a seizure and knocking over the caviar service and making just a dreadful scene. Incidents like that are socially devastating in the high brow lifestyle we live over there and I'd hate to see that happen to the guy. Troy would probably clean up well enough to be presentable and might even own a non clip-on tie.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

To be honest I don't think your issue reaching them is where you post but in what you are posting. They don't want forced grouping. They aren't interested in a game like this. You aren't going to be able to please two masters on this game. Right now you are appealing to the MMO market only and only a certain demographic of that and your focus is good. I wouldn't try to bring in the "Dark Souls" kids they aren't interested.

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I dunno.... there are a couple of guys on the VR team that fiend on Dark Souls, and (obviously) they love MMOs. I think there is some cross-over.

Tiv_sl said:

Haha, indeed!

It wouldn't be epic fantasy without Miracle Max!

So glad someone got the reference, was hesitant about going out on that limb

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More ballsy than me! I just randomly have "Have fun storming the castle!" run through my head but remain unspoken half the time I am telling someone goodbye lol.

well now I'm trying to pledge, turns out you need a credit card for it.

Someone wanna pledge for me, we outgrew CCs 20 years ago here :/

Aradune_sl said:

The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?

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Don't reject soloing outright. Talk more along the lines of how EQ was (Which I know you've been doing)--say "mobs are so difficult, that grouping is the safest, more efficient way to defeat them. However, particularly skilled adventurers, with well chosen gear and spells, can challenge themselves to overcome them."

See, the Dark Souls crowd are essentially the same people that were solo chanters, shamans and necros+Duo partners (Monks, SKs, Clerics ect). Pushing the boundary of what they could do by memorizing precise timings, patterns and extreme usage of their class abilities. EQ was so "free" about letting people kill high end stuff, that, in fact, on the p1999 EMU this community of solo artists still play this meta game (And they existed on the live realms, too.)---P99 Solo Artist Challenge. Now, there are benefits to killing these mobs sometimes, but if you notice, for a lot of them? It's just the fact that they are hard.

I linked this earlier, but I'll link it again---"Extra Credits" video on Stealth Games. They talk about designed downtime and, more importantly, the very niche concept of the"Stealth" Fantasy. But that's a misnomer, it's more about being theoppositeof the "Power Fantasy". The "Power Fantasy" is what most modern MMO's employ--it's essentially just the ability to kill mobs faster and faster, to smash through them. The "Stealth Fantasy" though, is the opposite, it's about KNOWING mobs are stronger than you, and having to find clever, open ended ways to use your abilities to overcome them.

I think the unique combination of freedom AND player character weakness early MMO's had? Tapped into that fantasy, even if it didn't offer stealth mechanics directly. Think about a lot of the greatest "mistake mechanics" in EQ,kiting,FD pullingect--these are all elements of players using skills ininventiveways to overcome much stronger opponents by exploiting weaknesses--they are stealth fantasy applications of skills. A lot of mechanics in Dark Souls tap into that. Learning about your opponent, setting up your environment to beat him, without that knowledge, you'd get plastered in Dark Souls. It's the same way for high end soloing/Duoing in EQ--if you watch some high end solo videos, there is a lot of avoidance and stealth in them (Avoiding packs with invis, splitting them with calms and feing death ect.)

Bring these aspects up to your market. Tell them your game is built to be as free as possible. The mobs are so difficult that many will rely on groups. But there will be ways for the clever player to use his abilities, and his intelligence to exploit the mobs, and bring them down--making a name for himself as a "loner". Really play up the "assassin against all odds" angle. Because that's the type of game play Dark Souls taps into well, and there was MOST certainly an aspect of it within EQ.

Zefah_sl said:

I'm glad you went with zones. This makes it a lot easier for you to do unique architecture/scale in each and every zone without having to make it fit perfectly in the over-encompassing world. I think this was definitely a problem in Vanguard.

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I thought the crazy scale of the world in parts of VG was awesome. I loved that I could visit pretty much anything I could see in game.

Age of Conan while a shitty game did have some of the best looking areas I have seen in an mmo and it was zone based. So I think either done properly can be cool. I like seamless but it's not a deal breaker by any means if it's a zoned game.

Saying that the devs might fuck up and make some class abilities OP and allow you to solo is misleading people about soloing, it's wrong, sorry that is some sad bullshit Lithose, I would hope Brad wouldn't do that. Say either that soloing isn't intended and the game won't be designed around it or the mobs tuned to make it possible or say that it will be possible but grouping xp will be tuned so that it is ideal over soloing. This was true on EQ progression for example because of how SOE adjusted the level curve, they had increased it like 1000% over the vanilla curve, then for progression they put percent caps on what killing a mob could give you, so a solo player killed something and like 75%+ of the xp the mob was worth poofed because of the cap, but in a group of 5 you got the full value per kill, and essentially the same amount per kill as a solo player got.

Aradune_sl said:

Yeah, how can we reach out to them? They have an FB page, message boards, anything?

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From what I hear, a bunch of them took up residence on the emu serverProjectEQ: The Grand Creation. I don't know how many, but I know they formed a guild there called "Al' Kabor" after the mac server got shut down.

I can't believe I didn't think to post there sooner, but I've now posted on the forumthere. Being a emu server I'd understand if you don't post there. So I'll try to monitor my thread there as much as possible.

EDIT: Well never mind it seems. I have no clue why, but a mod deleted my thread there. Mods and devs there have usually been cool in my 9 years there, and this game is something any of the players would want to know about. I'm at a loss. Sorry. =/

tad10_sl said:

God bless you, and I'm sure the gaming producers feel the same but I can't play crap. I can't read crap. I can't even watch crap. Not anymore. I'd rather play MOO2 than whatever is new and shiny and better looking than MOO2 but not as good as MOO2. MMOs are the same, I regret that my work schedule prevented me from really playing the latest round of progression servers. If Pantheon fails and SOE releases a new set of progression servers I'll arrange work so I can play - it's pretty much the only existing MMO that holds any interest. I loved VG in its horribly bugged but thoroughly charming state - way more than EQ, it was my #1 MMO, but now, after all the horrible plastic surgery that SOE has done to the game I can't play it.

I tried to like TSW but the quest grind killed me. Emerald Dream was fun for a little bit, but I've already done Vanilla WoW and it was okay, not great. I didn't need

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Most of the games I listed were far from crap. Perfect? No. Great? Not really. Fun? Yep for the most part.

I honestly have no idea how you can like VG or EQ and hate Vanilla WoW. While EQ is my first and best remembered MMO love, I'd have to say that from a more objective point of view WoW was the better game. It was just more polished, less clunky, and still provided most of the wonder and excitement I felt with EQ. In fact WoW is probably the reason I don't buy into the "virginity lost" or "first kiss" argument. Sure the first in either case will be immortalized and remembered a little better than any after.

EQ was that first time that was like HOLY SHIT GIRLS HAVE VAGINAS AND WHAT A WONDERFUL WORLD IT IS. WoW was like the first time you tried it with an experienced girl who had been doing her kegels and you're just like HOLY FUCK THAT FEELS GOOD HOW ARE YOU DOING THAT.

I know that's a little crude but really I want another game that I feel good inside (lol) and want to throw my time and subscription money at. All the other games were fun for a quick tumble and they had some nice features I really enjoyed exploring but I want a game I can come home to!

Whidon1_sl said:

I actually feel you are missing a large chunk of your most likely audience. There are a ton of people who never played MMOs pre-wow that pine for the Vanilla and or BC era wow that was basically a more polished EQ,

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Agree with this.

With respect Brad the content of the Kickstarter page isn't going to reach out to people who don't already know what to expect from the sort of MMO under consideration. Large parts of it are like an in joke, taking for granted that people understood what it's about. From the very start establish the need- what's different, what EQ or even WoW players can be nostalgic about in the days when everything is handed out free and easy. Then sell it and talk how you are going to achieve it.

I'll also throw in a couple of points that I may or may not be wrong about :

i) I wouldn't have published stretch goals ahead of reaching previous tier funding. People are intrigued to see what unlocks with tiers and that in itself is a driver to backers. I'd have started with a lower funding goal also, prolly around $200k - not because that would be the goal, but because reaching the goal early and then pushing on into stretch goals in and of itself creates buzz, confidence and impetus in and off itself.

ii) A lot of the tier rewards won't appeal to potential backers - this free tunic you're offering will probably turn out to be something special knowing you and the scene but most of todays players see items as disposable junk that is only going to last five minutes. Now if, for example, it was understood by the description of the game that loot is different in this game and the item would be of long term value - eg an evolving Fungi Tunic - that would be another matter.

The thing is here people are looking for something that is going to give them an edge, otherwise they are going to see no inherent benefit to paying now. Unlike those of us who desperately want to see this game launch the majority of folk won't invest now unless they get a lasting in game benefit that they won't be able to buy once the kickstarter closes. The EQN founders packs are a good example :EQN Landmark - Founder's PackThe majority of people are going Trailblazer, significantly they get an item that increases crit on crafting and remote vault access.

The Hex KS is a great example - check out the $250 dollar packages :HEX MMO Trading Card Game by Cryptozoic Entertainment KickstarterThey flew out the door and went on to sell for multiples of the price pledged between players, even though the game hasn't launched yet. To be fair to you the tier involving lifetime subs for $1 a year was a good move in this direction.

Again for the mount tier, you need to sell the mount. eg it's going to be the fastest in the game, unique graphics, mounts will be extremely rare, there will be no mounts in the game for a long time .... whatever. Mounts are common place now and often given away for next to nothing at a low level.


In summary you have to give rewards that make people want to give you money now by giving rewards and benefits that they (perceive they) won't be able to get once the KS ends.


One thing I would do right now is open up an unlimited $125 tier called 'The Developer Tier' with exclusive access to a developer forum on your site promising regular (daily/weekly) discussions with the devs about the games development so that people can feel like they are shaping major features of the game. Throw in that people that fund this tier will be expected to agree to an NDA.

Falwell_sl said:

SA thread isup and runningand Brad has already been posting there.

And don't send Tad over there please. He's a nice boy and all but I don't want him having a seizure and knocking over the caviar service and making just a dreadful scene. Incidents like that are socially devastating in the high brow lifestyle we live over there and I'd hate to see that happen to the guy. Troy would probably clean up well enough to be presentable and might even own a non clip-on tie.

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Tad tends to get put in kitty jail soon enough when he posts in MMO threads over there.

Aradune_sl said:

EQ was $8M, Vanguard $30M, WoW $80M, SWTOR $200M.

As you can see, it's all over the place. I think making an MMO with a target audience can be done for around $8M if not less.

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TBH if you're going on the cheap hire some Korean devs to do your combat, character animations, etc. Then just tone them down from dragonball Z to something more palatable to western audiences. Don't pull a Funcom and have some of the best MMO ideas to date ruined because you don't have people who can translate your vision into a graphical reality.

I don't know how many times Ragnar said "combat" in reference to AoC or TSW but it had to be at least 7 million times. And those two games are prime examples of the worst implementations of combat and character animations I have ever encountered.

Maybe I'm just vain but it's hard to feel like a badass when your character looks like a retard. Not to bash on anyone's hard work but it's obviously an issue of talent when you can play any no name, low budget, cookie cutter shit "eastern" mmo and it will have combat that looks about 1000x better than most anything on the western market.

I still have no clue why someone hasn't done a better job of melding the aesthetics of an eastern game with the lore, depth, and content of a western one. Aion was probably the closest I have played and it was pretty fun but had a lot if the same issues Warhammer did. The classes and abilities were just boring. It had boring WoW knock off quests etc.

Sigh, Warhammer was another disappointment. The whole game felt like they just copied mechanics from WoW without anyone actually playing them before release to see if they were actually fun lol.

Whidon1_sl said:

"But if we fail, then the whole mmorpg world, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps somehow even less social, by the lights of perverted instancing and solo-questgrinding. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves, that if the Foh/rerolled and its Community last for a thousand years, men will still say,This was their finest hour."- Aradune Mithara

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LOL, Yes! Now let's go help Frodo and Rudy get up that mountain!

Lithose_sl said:

Don't reject soloing outright. Talk more along the lines of how EQ was (Which I know you've been doing)--say "mobs are so difficult, that grouping is the safest, more efficient way to defeat them. However, particularly skilled adventurers, with well chosen gear and spells, can challenge themselves to overcome them."

See, the Dark Souls crowd are essentially the same people that were solo chanters, shamans and necros+Duo partners (Monks, SKs, Clerics ect). Pushing the boundary of what they could do by memorizing precise timings, patterns and extreme usage of their class abilities. EQ was so "free" about letting people kill high end stuff, that, in fact, on the p1999 EMU this community of solo artists still play this meta game (And they existed on the live realms, too.)---P99 Solo Artist Challenge. Now, there are benefits to killing these mobs sometimes, but if you notice, for a lot of them? It's just the fact that they are hard.

I linked this earlier, but I'll link it again---"Extra Credits" video on Stealth Games. They talk about designed downtime and, more importantly, the very niche concept of the"Stealth" Fantasy. But that's a misnomer, it's more about being theoppositeof the "Power Fantasy". The "Power Fantasy" is what most modern MMO's employ--it's essentially just the ability to kill mobs faster and faster, to smash through them. The "Stealth Fantasy" though, is the opposite, it's about KNOWING mobs are stronger than you, and having to find clever, open ended ways to use your abilities to overcome them.

I think the unique combination of freedom AND player character weakness early MMO's had? Tapped into that fantasy, even if it didn't offer stealth mechanics directly. Think about a lot of the greatest "mistake mechanics" in EQ,kiting,FD pullingect--these are all elements of players using skills ininventiveways to overcome much stronger opponents by exploiting weaknesses--they are stealth fantasy applications of skills. A lot of mechanics in Dark Souls tap into that. Learning about your opponent, setting up your environment to beat him, without that knowledge, you'd get plastered in Dark Souls. It's the same way for high end soloing/Duoing in EQ--if you watch some high end solo videos, there is a lot of avoidance and stealth in them (Avoiding packs with invis, splitting them with calms and feing death ect.)

Bring these aspects up to your market. Tell them your game is built to be as free as possible. The mobs are so difficult that many will rely on groups. But there will be ways for the clever player to use his abilities, and his intelligence to exploit the mobs, and bring them down--making a name for himself as a "loner". Really play up the "assassin against all odds" angle. Because that's the type of game play Dark Souls taps into well, and there was MOST certainly an aspect of it within EQ.

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Good post! I am not a solo gamer by nature (at least in terms of the exp grind) but I agree it can be mad fun just seeing what you can solo or small group kill by using your character's abilities to the fullest. I don't know how many 7634776375 HP vendors and quest NPCs me and a buddy would duo with a warrior and an SK just because it was funny in EQ.

I also have tons of time spent on my P99 necro and cleric (pre Kunark) just seeing how many spawns I could keep down in lguk, mm, etc. It's fun to be challenged or to seek out challenge even in games as simplistic as EQ.

I put my 45 in. Even if it doesn't reach it's goal I put my support in!

Creslin_sl said:

Saying that the devs might fuck up and make some class abilities OP and allow you to solo is misleading people about soloing, it's wrong, sorry that is some sad bullshit Lithose, I would hope Brad wouldn't do that. Say either that soloing isn't intended and the game won't be designed around it or the mobs tuned to make it possible or say that it will be possible but grouping xp will be tuned so that it is ideal over soloing. This was true on EQ progression for example because of how SOE adjusted the level curve, they had increased it like 1000% over the vanilla curve, then for progression they put percent caps on what killing a mob could give you, so a solo player killed something and like 75%+ of the xp the mob was worth poofed because of the cap, but in a group of 5 you got the full value per kill, and essentially the same amount per kill as a solo player got.

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I think what he was getting at was that soloing was possible in EQ even if the game wasn't designed around it. However to solo you definitely had to be on your game.

Even rogues could solo in EQ. It wasn't as efficient and convenient as with say a necro. But with band aids and later a fungi and knowing which mobs you could consistently kill, it was doable. Also incredibly boring. But doable.

Aradune_sl said:

The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?

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The Dark Souls Steam forums have quite a bit of activity (Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition General Discussions :: Steam Community).

But how to name drop without obviously spamming?

Whidon1_sl said:

I actually feel you are missing a large chunk of your most likely audience. There are a ton of people who never played MMOs pre-wow that pine for the Vanilla and or BC era wow that was basically a more polished EQ,

They have the same complaints about modern mmos, and the same wants in future mmos. Unfortunately there is no rerolled.org for these guys but I feel the pantheon team and it's supporters would be wise to reach out to them... much more upside here then eqmac

Also the Dark Souls crowd does have potential for this. Dark Souls key points are a RPG with super challenging gameplay that requires skill and dedication. Yes many of this crowd will not be interest but many will and it's a huge crowd.

Also a dev or Brad should go on Something Awful, it's a huge forum with an audience that would likely be receptive to the game you want to make. Plus it would flatter their ego, they really like to believe they are a forum of elite posting special snowflakes on the best forum on the internets.

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The interesting thing here is while I agree with you , there are people who are pledging, including some in this thread that don't even want vanilla WoW, they want EQ 2.0 (which I think is impossible). The biggest hurdle this game will have is pleasing even most of the hardcore fanboys.