Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,763
Yes, you've just been "accidentally" post stalking me all day
rolleyes.png
Accidentally? All day? I just woke up two hours ago. You are foaming at the mouth. I responded.... your reading comprehension is terrible because I very specifically said that if someone else was foaming at the mouth I would be responding to them.

I like how the rest of the information in my posts you ignore. The actual facts. Instead you have to assume I think you are my nemesis and I must stop you. Other people will read the actual meat of the posts and make decisions based on that. You only focus on the parts you think are against you. You don't have the mental capacity to actually debate a real issue.

How about this. You explain to the class here why budgets are exactly the same in 2014 as they were in 1999. Give us some numbers on why every single other MMO (even your beloved failed VG) are considerably more than EQ was to develop. You explain to everyone why you think the successful MMO's just could have done it with $800k. Bedazzle us with that big brain of yours.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
EQ was $8M, Vanguard $30M, WoW $80M, SWTOR $200M.

As you can see, it's all over the place. I think making an MMO with a target audience can be done for around $8M if not less.
Arranged in order of budget... as well as how fun/good the games were? :p

I think a LOT can be saved budget-wise by not trying to over-think and over-tune and over-design every last element of the game. For instance, PVP doesn't need to be a huge undertaking that millions are spent trying to design a 'system.' Just give us servers where the pvp is turned on, maybe a few unique rulesets, maybe some basic 'PCs take 30% of spell damage' when needed, and then let people fight over the world and pve (that of course has to be worth fighting over).

EQ PvP was awesome, and anyone who doesn't think so either didn't experience it or are wimps wanting a tug o' war match, not actual war. Vanilla WoW pvp was pretty good... before they implemented their pvp 'system' that surely cost them a lot of development money.

Sometimes less is more, or whatever.
 

Aradune_sl

shitlord
188
0
Well I'm in for $45 for now. I may go bigger as we see more or may not, but I felt pressured by my MMO addictive personality to grab a $45 spot before they were all gone. That was good strategy btw, reducing those, spurred me off the fence.

So this is my first post, and now I feel like shit for not linking 100 awesome EQ Guild social media sites. Fuck man, that's a tough act to follow, Jesus.

Anyway, I agree with Tiv in that my love for classic EQ has little to do with youthful nostalgia or popping my MMO cherry, since I was a grown ass man with a full time job and had been playing UO for years before starting EQ in late 99. I just prefer that style of slow paced, resource management focused diku MMO.

Diku is a genre, just as platformers or FPS are, not old or outdated just different, and I believe the same guys who love hardcore games like Dark Souls and DayZ would enjoy an old school hardcore punishing EQ type experience too.
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
 

Dumar_sl

shitlord
3,712
4
Yes Brad, there's lots to be said and lessons learned about not over-engineering the game mechanics. WoW pvp is a great example.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,763
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
To be honest I don't think your issue reaching them is where you post but in what you are posting. They don't want forced grouping. They aren't interested in a game like this. You aren't going to be able to please two masters on this game. Right now you are appealing to the MMO market only and only a certain demographic of that and your focus is good. I wouldn't try to bring in the "Dark Souls" kids they aren't interested.
 

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
So the Kickstraq "projection" is not a projection at all simply it just averages out the daily amount so far and shows how it will work if it continues. It'snota projection or really useful at all and seems to have misled a ton of people. The site does start projections when it gets more data, I am not sure when it first does it but I think the low initial day 1 funding will likely cause it to project lower then it should.

Kickstraq is useful for daily amounts. it has 17.8k for the 17th basically in line with the 16kish I counted from 16th 2:40est to 17 2:40est. Most KS sustain an average of their day 5-7 amounts during the "valley" between the first few couple days and last few days. I would say 14-18k daily during that time is not an unreasonable projection. Although I worry we are seeing the initial boost spread out over the first week instead of first 24-48hrs, If that is the case we are in trouble

At an avg of 17k a day from now till 3 days to end project will need 110k or so in last thee days for the win. That should be achieved and is very gettable. 15k a day during that time span means you need 175k in the last 3 days.. possible but it will be a fucking close run thing.

Overall I feel more optimistic every time I look at the KS funding trends, at first I felt despondent and thought it had little chance based on the first 24-36hrs. Now I feel it's 50/50 perhaps more like 60-65% odds.

The community of rerolled and elsewhere will do a bangup job no-doubt. But basically it's up to Brad and the Visionary team to do whats needed to ensure funding. Work on the KS, Post/interact as much as possible, and do whatever is needed to get in the media.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,533
595
You are a shill. A fanboy. A coattail rider. You are Darph or Draegan. You are trying to firmly implant yourself so far into the project you like that you can't see outside of it at all.

Those of us that are fairly neutral (like me) want this game to succeed.
You offered me a word of advice, so I'll return the favor, though I doubt you'll listen. You don't understand the world, at least not in the way you think you do.

Things don't get accomplished by people who "are neutral". Things get accomplished by people who are willing to get fanatical and love it sight unseen. Whether that unseen thing is a politician they don't really know at all, a work of art that exists in their head and they want to put down on paper or canvas or in this instance a fledgling MMO.

To put this in simpler terms: this game, that you are interested in, only happens if a lot of people get fanatical and get the word out everywhere. Unless you're donating 400,000 dollars it doesn't matter how much you put in. God bless you if you want to throw down 1,000 or 10,000 but you being neutral and donating 10,000 won't get this thing funded. That gets Pantheon to 157,000 as of right now, far, far, far short of 800k.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to understand this post, at least not right now. Maybe someday when you get fanatical about something you will.

Anyway, enough of this sideline discussion.

Enjoy your Saturday.
 

Budos

Golden Knight of the Realm
593
10
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
More PvP and trolling will get you all kinds of Dark Souls players. Start talking about a Rallos Zek style server and they will come.

Or make Aradune in DS and make PvP videos, ala Giant Dad.

 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,763
You offered me a word of advice, so I'll return the favor, though I doubt you'll listen. You don't understand the world, at least not in the way you think you do.

Things don't get accomplished by people who "are neutral". Things get accomplished by people who are willing to get fanatical and love it sight unseen. Whether that unseen thing is a politician they don't really know at all, a work of art that exists in their head and they want to put down on paper or canvas or in this instance a fledgling MMO.

To put this in simpler terms: this game, that you are interested in, only happens if a lot of people get fanatical and get the word out everywhere. Unless you're donating 400,000 dollars it doesn't matter how much you put in. God bless you if you want to throw down 1,000 or 10,000 but you being neutral and donating 10,000 won't get this thing funded. That gets Pantheon to 157,000 as of right now, far, far, far short of 800k.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to understand this post, at least not right now. Maybe someday when you get fanatical about something you will.

Anyway, enough of this sideline discussion.

Enjoy your Saturday.
That's funny. This fairly neutral guy is donating more than you ... I guess that means your theory is stupid. You being a fanatic will help this kickstarter get funded. It won't ensure a good game. It won't ensure that the game gets the rest of the money it needs. You don't honestly think they only need 800k to get the game made do you?

Being a fanatic only gets you a part of the equation and you will never ever understand that.

The VG fanatics paying into that game forced them to not evolve it into something good. Why change it when we have just enough fanatics to keep the door open and they will be angry if we change the game now.

I don't think you understand fanaticism at all. You definitely haven't taken a single class on sociology or marketing.

This is what I see from you tad. You are trying to get into a CM spot. You are trying to ride this into being relevant to the future game. Good luck with that.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
Ironically enough, almost everyone I know who enjoys Dark Souls is an ex EQ or DAOC player.

I really hope you played through this game, even though it's a grinder. The atmosphere and setting are *perfect* for an MMO. The traps, environment, characters, and everything are so reminiscent of what I picture an AD&D environment, and with a great Tomb of Horrors feel in regards to traps.
 

a_skeleton_03

<Banned>
29,948
29,763
So the Kickstraq "projection" is not a projection at all simply it just averages out the daily amount so far and shows how it will work if it continues. It'snota projection or really useful at all and seems to have misled a ton of people. The site does start projections when it gets more data, I am not sure when it first does it but I think the low initial day 1 funding will likely cause it to project lower then it should.
That information can help drive it to funding though. If people watch the tracking and see it is most likely going to hit funding and reach some stretch goal they are interested in they are likely to want to donate to it more. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. The potential of making money makes money for them.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
They don't care about Everquest, so the nostalgia that is working well right now will just bore them. Down the road, it'll be a cocktail of more specifics when it comes to mechanics, more of a solidified theme/message about how current MMOs are candyland to challenge them, and momentum.

Solidify some details so direct comparisons can be made, like in WoW everyone gets their own personal Raid instance, whereas in Pantheon the world is open. In Guild Wars 2 nobody really needs you or your class to survive or defeat content, in Pantheon other players need you, and you may be the difference between victory and defeat.

Then enhance that with the theme/message of what that means: that when you win in Pantheon, it matters. It's not just a matter of resetting an instance or respawning and bind-rushing in some FPS. It's not like Ralph Wolf and Sam Sheepdog where you battle it out for the sheep, and then the next day everything is reset to square one and you battle it out again. When you win in Pantheon, it means something. You're made better, and ARE better. You aren't just one of a million players with the exact same quest rewards. Your efforts make you better. Gaming is hugely competitive these days. While in EQ it was a vague, underlying aspect that it was all one big cock-measuring contest at the core, nowdays it's not underlying. People want a game where bragging rights are real and mean more than just awkward taunts on forums because your guild killed something 32 seconds faster or sooner. Want to prove your guild is the shit? Well, now you can, because content will be contested and it's time to put up or shuttup. All this is why I don't like instanced content, especially for this style of project... instancing has almost eliminated the notions of competition and making yourself or guild into a legend.

Then momentum is going to be the huge factor for all of the people who aren't really pining for EQ. If they see this project is getting popular, and see the message is basically that this game is for people with balls, they'll want to get on board. I remember in EQ heyday when I had plenty of friends join because they felt like pussies for seeming to not be able or willing to handle a game like EQ. Sure, they didn't always last for years, but it got them playing. EQ went from an obscure game where it was 'cool, what's that?' to a game that a lot of people I knew were talking about in 'oh yeah, well I'll show you' sort of terms. Momentum got rolling and it wasn't necessarily the cool thing to do (in crowds where such things were discussed) like WoW which became very cool. But it was decidedly uncool if you couldn't survive EQ or were made to seem like it would just be too hard or too much for you.

Of course, this is just the perspective of someone who was playing EQ with a lot of testosterone and competition around Army buddies. But I think that mentality not only still exists, but is even more present in gamers these days. They're more competitive and out to prove something than ever. There's just nothing to really prove in most MMOs anymore. And when there is something to prove, it's the kind of thing were everyone gets the same personalized instances and quest items and coins-for-armor as everyone else. Pantheon can set itself apart as a fantasy MMO where people actually win and lose, which I think will go away because it doesn't ever feel like you're winning in these games anymore. And of course, the key to winning is a game that makes people feel like they're constantly losing just often enough they try to keep proving they're not losers, but winners, which is what EQ did pretty masterfully.
 

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
The challenge is figuring out how to reach the (mostly younger) Dark Souls, etc. audience. Any ideas?
Reddit Brad, Reddit.... Do an AMA, it's simply the most effective social media tool you have available. You don't need to answer questions you don't like but be candid and forthcoming... we can link you some really successful AMA to study to give you an idea. You can absolutely hit on some topics that will really excite the audience at reddit which is essentially the audience your looking for outside us oldguard.

At first have a couple other devs do an AMA to get the name out and drum up support for your big one.

Also Brad we need more emphasis on the challenging parts of the game and well... simply more info all together. Quotes from you simply telling us how the game will be like dark souls and not like modern hand holding mmos would be great.

For instance I have been promoting Pantheon all over Reddit but we need more info from you on the actual game. The best response I have got on there is by talking about all the faults in modern MMO's and basically all the crap we complain about here constantly. Also I have used your quotes of things like saying 'EQ is the foundation for everything in Pantheon" this ties into the last thing on modern MMO's being a huge disappointment.

I feel you giving a KS update where you talk about the faults of the modern MMO, how it has gone from EQ to the endless wow-clone and how Pantheon wants to give us what we loved about early EQ and early WoW without being a clone would be a huge hit and something you should put big emphasis on in your AMA.
 

Whidon

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,880
2,906
Fires of Heaven

these posts from furor are what got me more excited for wow then EQ2. Try to emulate them for stuff like the Cleric backing update and other class descriptions.
 

JarekStorm_sl

shitlord
116
0
They don't care about Everquest, so the nostalgia that is working well right now will just bore them. Down the road, it'll be a cocktail of more specifics when it comes to mechanics, more of a solidified theme/message about how current MMOs are candyland to challenge them, and momentum.

Solidify some details so direct comparisons can be made, like in WoW everyone gets their own personal Raid instance, whereas in Pantheon the world is open. In Guild Wars 2 nobody really needs you or your class to survive or defeat content, in Pantheon other players need you, and you may be the difference between victory and defeat.

Then enhance that with the theme/message of what that means: that when you win in Pantheon, it matters. It's not just a matter of resetting an instance or respawning and bind-rushing in some FPS. It's not like Ralph Wolf and Sam Sheepdog where you battle it out for the sheep, and then the next day everything is reset to square one and you battle it out again. When you win in Pantheon, it means something. You're made better, and ARE better. You aren't just one of a million players with the exact same quest rewards. Your efforts make you better. Gaming is hugely competitive these days. While in EQ it was a vague, underlying aspect that it was all one big cock-measuring contest at the core, nowdays it's not underlying. People want a game where bragging rights are real and mean more than just awkward taunts on forums because your guild killed something 32 seconds faster or sooner. Want to prove your guild is the shit? Well, now you can, because content will be contested and it's time to put up or shuttup. All this is why I don't like instanced content, especially for this style of project... instancing has almost eliminated the notions of competition and making yourself or guild into a legend.

Then momentum is going to be the huge factor for all of the people who aren't really pining for EQ. If they see this project is getting popular, and see the message is basically that this game is for people with balls, they'll want to get on board. I remember in EQ heyday when I had plenty of friends join because they felt like pussies for seeming to not be able or willing to handle a game like EQ. Sure, they didn't always last for years, but it got them playing. EQ went from an obscure game where it was 'cool, what's that?' to a game that a lot of people I knew were talking about in 'oh yeah, well I'll show you' sort of terms. Momentum got rolling and it wasn't necessarily the cool thing to do (in crowds where such things were discussed) like WoW which became very cool. But it was decidedly uncool if you couldn't survive EQ or were made to seem like it would just be too hard or too much for you.

Of course, this is just the perspective of someone who was playing EQ with a lot of testosterone and competition around Army buddies. But I think that mentality not only still exists, but is even more present in gamers these days. They're more competitive and out to prove something than ever. There's just nothing to really prove in most MMOs anymore. And when there is something to prove, it's the kind of thing were everyone gets the same personalized instances and quest items and coins-for-armor as everyone else. Pantheon can set itself apart as a fantasy MMO where people actually win and lose, which I think will go away because it doesn't ever feel like you're winning in these games anymore. And of course, the key to winning is a game that makes people feel like they're constantly losing just often enough they try to keep proving they're not losers, but winners, which is what EQ did pretty masterfully.
Exactly what I meant, but more concise.

Also, great ideas on what it will take to interest them.

Edit: all kinds of formatting weirdness on mobile
 

Nester

Vyemm Raider
4,978
3,183
EQMac.com View forum - Everquest General Discussion

I already posted there, but really, if you happen to know Hobart he was quasi-guilded with Temerity, he's the guy who would have the most success reaching out to that crowd, IMHO.
I just made a post on the Temerity forums, and bumped your Eqmac forum post ! Trying to reach out to my EQmac contacts but most have spread like the wind.
Both of these sites are not getting much traffic but hey its something. .
 

Pyros

<Silver Donator>
11,217
2,365
Dark Souls has very little to do with EQ, or mmos in general. It has a small online component, which is mostly the equivalent of playing early UO, you're adventuring in Deceit, getting deeper into the dungeons, fighting hordes of undead with your truted steed and your silver katana, and then some retard in a neon green colored shirt and without pants pop on your screen with a precast explo and rape you instantly, then loot your shit and throw most of it away because it was garbage but he'd still rather loot it than leave it there. Mostly it's a solo game with a bit of pvp and it has extremely tight controls and highly action based combat, which is basically the opposite of what you're probably going to make, there's fairly little overlap other than "they're hard games".

So yeah not sure why there would be some sort of Dark Souls community waiting for an old school mmo. Old school mmo players might have liked Dark Souls and those would be interested, but I would assume most Dark Souls players haven't played a mmo and/or don't care about mmos, especially one with the more traditional targetting system and such. Feels a bit like trying to recruit them people still playing Tribes and Quake Live because those are the hardcore FPS and shit.

If anything, if there was some announcement about a FFA ruleset(or soft faction ruleset), you might get a reaction by checking out the old school UO/DAoC/AC PvP "community". The bunch of assholes that have been trying to find a good pvp game for years. Some play shitty private servers, some play EVE, some are waiting for Archeage beta, but most of them are bored as fuck mostly, and old enough to have some money to waste.
 

popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
7,547
11,831
The AMA's only really work well if you plan a time to basically do a sit-down interview with a ton of people in real time. Have to make a date, stick to it, and practice/plan for eventual questions. People gonna want specifics, not just vague notions. Even if it's not completely divulge.

Like: we want a game where effort is rewarded.

Okay, great, but that's all games, by design.

So: we want a game where effort is rewarded. There will be epic quests that will require time, coordination and probably a lot of deaths to complete. But the item you get won't be something to be taken for granted as an item everyone is entitled to get just by showing up or accepting a quest. The best of the best will get the items first, and others may have to work on it longer before they finally get it, or may not ever earn it at all. We're okay with that, though, because for equipment and characters to matter in Pantheon, nothing can simply be handed out as a participation award, and must be earned.

Don't have to necessarily be so specific to the point of mechanics, though it helps. But do have to consistent and specific to the message/theme of Pantheon. Which is much of the current issue with the way the KS is framed. There's not yet a very consistent message. I think it's that the game and world will be one that matters because everything will be earned. But I'm not even sure. Looking at everything as a microcosm of the mission statement is important, though. What's the mission statement? What's the main theme or idea Pantheon is trying to get across? Is everything that is being said tying back into that theme? If it's not, it needs to be redefined. If it is, and the mission statement is too general or subjective, like 'the game will rock' then things need to be recalibrated so they're tapping into something more specific, like the game will matter because everything will not be given, but earned.