Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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After the last bit of bickering back and forth, that Utnayan comment is good comic relief at least. Bravo I didn't think it would be possible to come off as any bigger of a self-aggrandizing blowhard but well done.
If Pantheon gets 800k funding and works with just that it probably won't be considered a AAA game. If they attract more funding and get 7million from various sources then yeah, it's reasonable to expect a AAA game. Not sure where the disagreement is here.


Re: Instanced vs non-instanced raiding. I'll reiterate my opinion that most raids should be instanced and almost all grouping should be noninstanced. And non-instanced raid mobs should be on set, known timers.
Honestly, I'm more interested in seeing Pantheon staying a bedroom operation. The last decade of "AAA" MMORPGs has left me with a distaste for them. Every high dollar MMORPG has failed. I'd be ok with shitty low dollar graphics from a bed room operation where the game play is fucking amazing.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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As this is the first KS I've really followed and pitched in on , asking those of you who've followed others , doesn't 18 tiers seem a bit too many as is or is it fairly the norm ?
I recall a lot of tiers on the Obsidian KS but 18 seems like a lot. It's a strange KS all around, normally stretch goals aren't revealed, they're hidden also there are no physical swag tiers. Of course the thing is, those aren't really stretch goals - they are things that need to be in a released MMO to be successful (crafting players won't show up if there is no crafting).
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Honestly, I'm more interested in seeing Pantheon staying a bedroom operation. The last decade of "AAA" MMORPGs has left me with a distaste for them. Every high dollar MMORPG has failed. I'd be ok with shitty low dollar graphics from a bed room operation where the game play is fucking amazing.
It's pretty hard to get amazing gameplay from a garage operation unless you get lucky with a few really dedicated and talented developers.
 
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After the last bit of bickering back and forth, that Utnayan comment is good comic relief at least. Bravo I didn't think it would be possible to come off as any bigger of a self-aggrandizing blowhard but well done.
That's how I feel.

WoW vanilla saw the loss of outdoor PVP with the addition of battlegrounds and the pvp honor system. TBC added flying mounts and the game got more formulaic. Wotlk was more of the same
I loved original WoW. LOVED IT! I've come to the conclusion that what ruins good MMOs is the fact that they start adding more and more systems on to the core game. As they do that, it further defines and confines the game play more and more until you get a play by numbers follow the rails game.

I think that the key to making an awesome MMORPG is to spend 90% of your time on the world, physics, rules, etc. Leave the content and how it is consumed to the gamers. For instance, PvP in original WoW was awesome. They added battlegrounds, ranking, and pvp gear... and it destroyed the PvP in the game.

On the PvP servers, we didn't need built in systems to make us pvp. We pvp'd because it's what you do on a pvp server, and it was fucking fun! Every PvP-related addition and change they made to WoW after the game was released slowly took away from the enjoyment of pvp in that game.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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It's pretty hard to get amazing gameplay from a garage operation unless you get lucky with a few really dedicated and talented developers.
yea, not that I want the team to grow to 100+ people but ideally we want it be to a large enough group for game play reasons. I'm pretty sure Brad mentioned there were 10 more people waiting to get on board once the funding kicked in. So a team of 20-30 would be nice.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Vanilla WoW was pretty much a polished EQ copy with some new ideas (quests as progression and easier soloing - EQ at that point was already instancing anything meaningful so that part isnt new). So they went and copied Kunark (entire new continent with very different flair -> TBC) and Velious (ice continent -> WotLK) and PoP (planar progression to stop the big bad from destroying the world -> Cataclysm) and GoD (another new continent that's very different from the existing world -> MoP)... I quit EQ at GoD but for all I know the next expansion was revisiting one of the previous new settings (Mutawhatevers Legion stuff again) and it looks like WoW is doing that too with the next expansion.
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read in the MMO forum, and that's really saying something.
 

Tauro

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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I hope the first week of the KS was to get things up to speed, get used to the KS-system and get the word out initially (i thought of this because of the 5 weeks runtime instead of the usual 4). An unusual tactic, to say the least
wink.png

Hopefully they will open the info-floodgates tomorrow (detailed, concrete info, not the vague stuff we mostly have atm) so this thing gets momentum and does not fizzle in the 2nd week. The more info the better, dont hold back with stuff you already have finished.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
<Prior Amod>
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That post was referring to people asking him to essentially name names with where is he getting the more funding that will be needed past an 800k kickstarter. I'm all for details and transparency and progress reports to a reasonable level. What I was referring to are the questions about Brad's statement of Kickstarter is the beginning of the funding.

He's obviously talked with someone/some group and has some ideas. Whether it's Ut's SOE already owns it theory to just some random group of buddies with large amounts of cash who knows. My point is asking him to give specific details about that aspect is useless. He's not going to suddenly spill the beans on backroom conversations nor confirm/deny them.

Again ,he's said KS is only the beginning , knows 800k isn't enough to make it, and we basically have to take that at face value atm. I'm all for being upfront as possible , but I also am realistic and know if business group A says , show us you can get X and have some interest and we will talk , is a conversation you don't go blathering about because someone asked on a message board who it is.
This isn't true at all. I never asked for names or any specific details. What I wanted to know and still want to know is what is planned. I donated anyways because I really would like to see this game made but really I probably could of spent that cast on the fucking lottery and gotten a better ROI from it. The reason I the question was I wanted to know what he really expects on $800k that question despite everyone jumping my ass really has not been answered. Do they think they will have a show-able demo to shop around? Is the money only there to prove proof of concept for to already interested investors, or have they not even the first clue who they will go to? How respected is Brad in the industry with the higher ups from other companies we all know the fans love him. The kickstarter is shit and everyone saying well hey they are working for free is a goddamn moron. Of course they are working for free or next to nothing it's a startup that's how startups work, even so someone with Brads financial means could at least hire a PR director, or get one to work for cheap/free to help him set up something as simple as the KS. That's why even though I donated I have a hard time thinking this project will be complete. There is no business plan lined out on their page it's pretty vague. Now do we need them to give us details of every closed door deal of course not and you are a goddamn idiot for jumping to that conclusion. However their is a good middle ground between everything and nothing, as someone mentioned earlier how about an idea of where the $800k will be allotted, and most importantly WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THE $800k.. what does success look like on that cash from their perspective. I also said I would be more willing to toss down more cash if the kickstarter was up front about what the real expectations are. They have crazy stretch goals that shouldn't even be listed up there that shit is a fucking pipe dream of $6.7mil and it reads like they wont add classes ect without certain funding.

Most importantly nobody should be expected to search threads and forums and various sources when you are asking for money, everything should be clearly laid out on their Kickstarter page it should come across as professional as possible. They should be talking about their team and why they believe in this project. Look through some of the most funded Kickstarters to see it done right.

Double Fine Adventure by Double Fine and 2 Player Productions Kickstarter

I mean getting millions of dollars in funding isn't unheard of if people know what they are getting. Again not to pick on his staff but really they have been around a long time. They have contacts to get the word spread. But I mean shit look at all the tiers they don't even offer a physical copy of the fucking game, another idea tossed around was cloth maps, t-shirts, fuck even signed copies of the game from the entire staff. I am not trying to ball bust I am talking about it because I would really love to see this game made, I don't even know if I have time to play it these days but I would love to see a real MMO made again so sure I will support it even if it's halfassed. I am however going to offer my opinion wanted or not because that's why we are all here.

Also as much as I like to see Brad here and posting, really and many other developers have come and gone through these forums when it's convenient or they need something, I am sure the guy is busy as we all are but when you want something from a community then you usually give something back. So there is no reason for people to tip toe around these things, if anyone came around asking for cash for something you should want to know as much as you can about it. I see many people throwing in money because the idea sounds awesome. If you guys were investors and threw money away at every awesome sounding idea you would be broke in no time. You need an awesome idea but also a solid and realistic plan if you want it to be more than an $800k charity give away.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
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We are not investors, and do not deserve to be treated as such. Our contributions are donations to a cause. Do you demand to see the local Salvation Army's business plan when you donate to them? Do they need to itemize what the monies are to be spent on?

Your request is unreasonable and absurd. Stop.

Edit: changed the charity to be something closer to the scope of Visionary Realms financially.
 

Hateyou

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I recall a lot of tiers on the Obsidian KS but 18 seems like a lot. It's a strange KS all around, normally stretch goals aren't revealed, they're hidden also there are no physical swag tiers. Of course the thing is, those aren't really stretch goals - they are things that need to be in a released MMO to be successful (crafting players won't show up if there is no crafting).
Project Eternity had 21 tiers. The difference is, theirs were thought out, made sense, and also were simplified with images. Hex MMO was another example of a KS with a lot (18) of tiers, but done well.

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popsicledeath

Potato del Grande
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I don't think a lot of tiers are bad if they're smartly done and re-visits of previous tiers that sold out. For instance, a $20 tier digital download version of the game, limited to 1k, sold out. A $25 tier that's a digital download version of the game, limited to 2k, sold out. A $30 digital download of the game, unlimited. Then, a $50 digital download with exclusive, not open, beta access, limted to 1k, sold out. A $55 digital download with beta, limited and sold out. A $60 digital download with beta, unlimited. Etc.

This is why things need to be staggered some. Beta needs to be high enough there's room for non-beta to be enticing. Alpha high enough there's room for beta to be enticing, etc.

They really should lower the cap on many of the tiers to let them sell out, then just restructure the whole thing. They may get some backlash from people who see alpha slots gone at half the price of the new tier, but it can at least be explained they wanted to reward early supporters (instead of just ignorance), and then alpha can be put at a higher tier where it belonged.

Pull the tiers with zero backers. Cap the tiers that are fubar. Get proper tiers in. Deal with the tears of people who aren't getting the same value as people who pledge early. It will be a representative microcosm of the game's philosophy, so a good thing!
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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We are not investors, and do not deserve to be treated as such. Our contributions are donations to a cause. Do you demand to see Amnesty International's business plan when you donate to them? Do they need to itemize what the monies are to be spent on?

Your request is unreasonable and absurd. Stop.
Did you seriously just compare an MMO kickstarter to Amnesty International?

Your posting is unreasonable and absurd. Stop.
 

DickTrickle

Definitely NOT Furor Planedefiler
13,403
15,563
We are not investors, and do not deserve to be treated as such. Our contributions are donations to a cause. Do you demand to see the local Salvation Army's business plan when you donate to them? Do they need to itemize what the monies are to be spent on?

Your request is unreasonable and absurd. Stop.

Edit: changed the charity to be something closer to the scope of Visionary Realms financially.
Actually, when donating to a charity, I do investigate to see how their money is being spent, in a broad sense, since a lot of charities nearly verge on scams or are horribly mismanaged. So, yeah...
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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From what I have read, it is their intent to get the 800k on Kickstarter to prove that there is an audience for this type of game. I am sure you are aware that if they initially take funding from a big publisher, the publisher will want to take control of many aspects, including the creative side and then we will just end up with another game that is exactly like the other MMOs that have launched and failed in the past 10 years. If they can prove that we wantTHISgame, they have a better chance of holding onto the creative integrity of their vision when they seek additional funding.

Edit* Bad spelling, fast typing
Well that's almost exactly what I have been saying. Which is exactly why I am curious about this aspect. Would be nice to hear the plans from Brad directly, or at least some idea of what his plans are, and even with some initial funding a big publisher could still get their hands on many aspects of game which I also implied. So I would like to be reassured that their is some thoughts by Brad and Co. to prevent such a thing. Your post was pretty much repeating my thoughts back to me.
All we have Boozecube,, he basically bumped Zoeii's post so that is his plan.
 

Angry Amadeus_sl

shitlord
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0
Project Eternity had 21 tiers. The difference is, theirs were thought out, made sense, and also were simplified with images. Hex MMO was another example of a KS with a lot (18) of tiers, but done well.

rrr_img_57304.jpg
This shit is so out of whack. I just want the *game* to be great. All of this extra bullshit - I absolutely hate it.
 

Quaid

Trump's Staff
11,782
8,267
Did you seriously just compare an MMO kickstarter to Amnesty International?

Your posting is unreasonable and absurd. Stop.
Ya I went back and edited it when I reread it.

And yes, while the AI comparisson was quite a bit off, donating to a kickstarter is far more similar to charitable donations than capital investment.
 

Hateyou

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This shit is so out of whack. I just want the *game* to be great. All of this extra bullshit - I absolutely hate it.
The shit they added was not my point. The point is a graphical representation of what backing certain tiers attained.
 

BoozeCube

The Wokest
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All we have Boozecube,, he basically bumped Zoeii's post so that is his plan.
Oh I know that's all we're getting. I am supporting it anyways. I was just responding to the comments of people acting like I was asking for the names and contact info of different people. I was just trying to clarify again what I would like to see or what should be expanded on if they want more investors to trust and back this project. What the people jumping my shit forget is I already drank the Kool-Aid I am on board but there are shit loads out there who wouldn't even look twice at this thing.

And yes for a Kickstarter everyone donating is an investor the only difference is they don't get a share of the company so instead of entice them a clearly laid out plan and vision and usually a few perks for being early adopters. You all can't really be that daft and expect everyone to follow as blindly as you do.