Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I dont want to ever again be able to stand still in a sea of low level mobs while being impervious to their attacks. That's the biggest immersion killer ever. The effect level had on your ability to deal and take damage should be diminished greatly or outright removed in future games, imo. I'll have better knowledge and experience, and better armor and weapons - I am already more powerful then I was when I leveled on those mobs without an artificial hit penalty.

On paper I'd agree with you Mr Creed - but there's also a lot of fun in a typical MMO with going back to earlier content and godmoding it.

GW2 has it so that you're auto-leveled (and FFXIV does in dungeons), and people don't really enjoy certain aspects of it. Although I think removing skills is the worst offender, but that part could be left in.

Yea I agree its a personal preference. One of the reasons I still play GW2 is that I can go anywhere and just play along with friends or guildies if I want without ruining the experience. I can do zones I havent visited while leveling and experience them roughly as intended instead of being a God to any mob there. I have never been a fan of alts so that plays into it. I'm willing to not have that godmode in the areas I outgrew in exchange for playing in any of its zones at roughly the intended power level (GW2 actually leaves you too strong imo, but it's close enough).

Not sure about other games that do it, but the GW2 downleveling is done great. No changing gear, you keep all traits and skills, just the co-efficients and things like hp scale down, and it's done on the fly without you even noticing unless you want to pay attention to it.

Most MMOs these days have a way to sync your level down, in some fashion. In EQ it's weird and you put on a shroud, and it actually changes you into a different mob. In EQ2 you just "mentor" down, and it's like GW2, where your stuff scales down, but I think you retain your buttons. In Vanguard I think you're scaled down, but your skills are removed...not sure though. In FFXIV your stuff is scaled down, and any abilities over the scaled level is removed (which is a real pain, especially when you have Version 1 and Version 2, and V1 isn't even on your hotbar anymore).

I guess what I'm getting at is that many MMOs have it as an "opt-in" feature, so you can play with friends and not completely godmode it (although, like you said, even in GW2 you're still a little more powerful than normal). I like that when GW2 does it the experience gain is at least decent - in the other ones, your experience gained when sync'd down is absolutely garbage, in the ones I've tried personally.

I was a fan of GW2 method on paper, but in practice it gives me a constant sense of deja vu, and not in a good way. Everywhere I go feels like everywhere I'd already been. But the content is now relevant and mobs dangerous! But in reality you're still just strong enough that they really aren't, just like the first time through most likely. But you've now got another zone to exp in! As if it was so hard in the first place. So what happens is you just run around doing all the POIs and hearts like you did in every other zone even though you've played the game long enough to feel stronger than the newbie mobs you're suddenly not stronger than.

Sometimes after months of working on a character you want to be able to run to town and not have every goblin on the way think you're some defenseless traveler. And having the entire world be catered to my personal experience makes me feel like I'm playing an arcade game where I have to kill everything everywhere I go. Ah, but you're continuing to progress, right? I guess, if that's what you want to call it. I have a hard time progressing after uninstalling a game, though.

I'm a fan of mentoring systems, but I'd rather have a persistent open world. Then give us dungeons that groups of friends across levels can all group in. It's easier to focus and tune the content that way, and encourages people to get into dungeons, which I still think should be the heart of mmo's. That way you have a sense of relative progression and power-curve in the game/world, and can still meet up with friends for group play, and the group play will be in dungeons where content can be tuned to actually be group oriented instead of your high level friends just getting bored down-leveling so you can mow down rats together.

A persistent open world and dungeons a bit more flexible to accommodate a level range for groups feels to me like the best balance that can provide opportunities to play together without turning the world into an arcade game.

I'm not trying to troll you here...it just seems like you've had a change of heart or maybe my perception of you was off in regards to mmos? I had you in the causal crowd
Mindset.. Your last few post are spot on.. Why happen? Did GW2 let you down? Serious question.

You lost me when you said you wanted everyone to start on an island

popsicledeath_sl said:

dungeons a bit more flexible to accommodate a level range for groups feels to me like the best balance that can provide opportunities to play together without turning the world into an arcade game.

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Not sure if this would work or not. Wouldn't that remove the "carrot"? You knew when you were grouping in Dreadlands that when you ding 50 you could zone into KC. You knew that about the time you were outleveling KC you could head to Sebilis. There was excitement to ding so you could head to the next dungeon. If you make dungeons scalable, then you also remove the carrot. Not sure here if this would work or not. I do like the idea, just not sure if you implement it how that would affect the games playability.

Getting weird cross-talk on replies.

But anyhow, ignore.

I'm fine with mentoring. Just wish they'd figure out a way to spice it up.. Like transformer style! Or just let me make a lower level my pet...

Twinking helped a lot too. Need to bring that back but RMT comes with it..

I like mentoring down. And I like Vanguards brotherhood system where you can allot some of your exp to friends (or alts, don't really care though some complained). Exp should be a byproduct of playing the game, not a cockblock for people wanting to play together.

I'd love to see open, persistent dungeons that took steps at making it more accessible the way Vanguard did with things like being able to more easily summon players to a new group. You don't have to make it insta-port for everyone in a group, just give players a few more tools to make it so their time isn't wasted clearing the entrance every time someone has to be replaced in the group. I'm not even opposed to waypoints, especially when they're done in a smart way like fighting into a second entrance that bypasses the lower level, initial entrance. Make at least someone that is level-appropriate run to the dungeon (so no level 30's running to the level 15 dungeon, summoning the group, and mentoring down... let the level 15 run, even if it's with the help of the level 30).

Accessibility improvements to the open, persistent dungeon systems in EQ, like Vanguard tried to do, instead of what WoW did which was accessibility improvements to the closed, instanced dungeon system in EQ. WoW did what it did so well that I think devs forgot there were other systems in place that could be improved upon and provide a different, but still potentially rewarding experience (in terms of game play and maybe even financially).

I think all accessibility improvements should be added via class/tradeskill. For instance, just a single summon stone someone can buy from a crafter that has 1 charge. Mages can also summon one. Just an additional means.. Something that allows the player to gate to where their group is.. Put a cool down on it if you must and limit it group areas.. Keep a balance to it. I've said it before but features should not be removed.. they should be improved and another aspect of the game should benefit from it. Economy and tradeskills being the big 2.

I hated getting attacked by every bullshit mob I ran past in GW2 when I was max level. I was never in danger... I was just annoyed.

Demounts were fun in WoW was it? lol forget what game..

I dont like mentoring/down/upscaling just for the sake of it - ideally I would prefer a much flatter advancement that naturally prevents something like god mode in low level zones. GW2's smooth up/downscaling is just a very well done band-aid that presents a decent compromise.

Convo_sl said:

I'm not trying to troll you here...it just seems like you've had a change of heart or maybe my perception of you was off in regards to mmos? I had you in the causal crowd
Mindset.. Your last few post are spot on.. Why happen? Did GW2 let you down? Serious question.

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Who did you mean with this Question Convo?

I was referring to popsicledeath. We have some history lol. I just get the vibe he may have moved a bit in his position in regards to MMOs. I was curious if GW2 was the reason. I didn't agree much with him on FoH but he's been pretty spot on with a lot of his posts here.

I can agree with what you're saying.. Mentoring just seems weird. I wish they would add to it in a more creative way. I used transformers as an outrageous example but I was semi serious. It should be more than just me showing up and getting deleveled. Let's figure out a way that mix and matching classes/lvls creates something much cooler. So it's fun for higher levels to go back and do some of that content over. I need to think more on it tho. It's a small concern overall for me in regards to the game I want to play..

popsicledeath_sl said:

+ Everywhere I go feels like everywhere I'd already been.
+ you're still just strong enough that they really aren't
+ Sometimes after months of working on a character you want to be able to run to town and not have every goblin on the way think you're some defenseless traveler.
+ And having the entire world be catered to my personal experience makes me feel like I'm playing an arcade game where I have to kill everything everywhere I go.
+ I'd rather have a persistent open world.
+ Then give us dungeons that groups of friends across levels can all group in.
+ dungeons, which I still think should be the heart of mmo's.
+ have a sense of relative progression and power-curve in the game/world

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Wait arent u that guy who used to troll hell out of the EQ thread? And yet everything you said you want already existed 14 years ago in EQ. And people criticise the ole EQ loyalists, but really, they are just the ones who have tried both sides of the coin and know from experience which one is more compelling.

What you are saying is what EQ players have been begging for for about 10 years now. Nobody listens because it is assumed that the EQ audience is too small to be worthwhile. WoW had a billion players EQ had a few, therefore.. derp. It's a stupid presumption in the first place because it doesn't take in to account how infantile the internet and even gaming in general was back in 1999-2002. But big business is rarely bold. They will go with what the statistics tells them to go with because that's just how they think, and that's why there has never been another EQ.

Convo_sl said:

I was referring to popsicledeath. We have some history lol. I just get the vibe he may have moved a bit in his position in regards to MMOs. I was curious if GW2 was the reason. I didn't agree much with him on FoH but he's been pretty spot on with a lot of his posts here.

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My guess is my support of GW2 as a game caused assumptions that it's the type of game I'd personally want to make or hope to be developed. It's not, necessarily. It was still fun, with a beautiful world, pretty good personal story, and I really enjoyed learning to play the classes. I thought they did a good job making exploration fun, too. I could have done without all the POIs and map completion and all that stuff, but even still there were a lot of little places off the beaten path that were hidden gems I enjoyed finding. It wasn't disappointing because I never expected it to be a long-term, old-school mmorpg experience (though I saw the potential with a few changes in design that it could have been, perhaps).

But no, I guess I've never been very 'casual' in my style or perspective, even when I have been in play-time. I mean, my ideal pvp system is pretty much EQ's Sullon Zek where you lose exp on death, can camp corpses, train people, no anti-griefing rules, exp-as-a-deniable-resource, etc. Otherwise it just feels like sparing, not the actual match.

My ideal game would be far more similar to early EQ and the non-quest-hub Vanguard. I want the next step in that progression, personally. Lighter, more forgiving games can still be fun, but the games that personally suck me in are usually ones that start to tap into the masochist in me.

Fish1_sl said:

Wait arent u that guy who used to troll hell out of the EQ thread? And yet everything you said you want already existed 14 years ago in EQ. And people criticise the ole EQ loyalists, but really, they are just the ones who have tried both sides of the coin and know from experience which one is more compelling.

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Just because I think "EQ loyalists" can be retarded lunatics in their inability to think outside of strictly black-and-white terms doesn't mean I don't think a game more in the vision of early, open-world EQ is not only possible, but could be awesome and even profitable.

Both sides of the coin? That's the point. Only someone who caught Aspergers from playing too much EQ thinks there's only two sides to the mmo development coin.