Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath_sl said:

Just because I think "EQ loyalists" can be retarded lunatics in their inability to think outside of strictly black-and-white terms doesn't mean I don't think a game more in the vision of early, open-world EQ is not only possible, but could be awesome and even profitable.

Both sides of the coin? That's the point. Only someone who caught Aspergers from playing too much EQ thinks there's only two sides to the mmo development coin.

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But there is in the mmo business. There's EQ which is so hardcore it's obtuse and tedious and kicks people when they are down, and takes insane amounts of time to do anything. And then there is *everything else*, which is dumb, made for 9 year olds, hands you everything on a plate instantly, and can be completed in a month.

Yeah I know there are other possibilities but try telling that to the decision makers with the $100m to 'invest' on a new MMO.

Fish1_sl said:

Wait arent u that guy who used to troll hell out of the EQ thread? And yet everything you said you want already existed 14 years ago in EQ. And people criticise the ole EQ loyalists, but really, they are just the ones who have tried both sides of the coin and know from experience which one is more compelling.

What you are saying is what EQ players have been begging for for about 10 years now. Nobody listens because it is assumed that the EQ audience is too small to be worthwhile. WoW had a billion players EQ had a few, therefore.. derp. It's a stupid presumption in the first place because it doesn't take in to account how infantile the internet and even gaming in general was back in 1999-2002. But big business is rarely bold. They will go with what the statistics tells them to go with because that's just how they think, and that's why there has never been another EQ.

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This is why I have hope for Brad's new project.

EQ is an anomaly. I called it a 'fluke' in another thread, but I'm nt sure that's the correct word for the situation. Brad and Steve worked at a freakin' nursery making inventory spreadsheets, but in their spare time were pursuing their passion by making WarWizard... Then these passionate and creative guys somehow fell ass backwards into designing a big budget title being backed by a major company. MMORPGs aren't made by small time guys any more that actually love the content they are creating, and you can smell it on almost every game released since early EQ. I'm hoping Brad's passion is still intact, and he's doing this project because it's something he intrinsically has to do... Not for some other motive. If that's the case, we may be in for a treat.

Ill be watching this very closely, and I wish them good luck.

At this point I just hope Brad is a real gamer. Because if he played games in the 80s and then came up with his own idea in the 90's and now just wants to relive that glory, it's not gonna work. Because as cool as EQ was, it's pretty damn dated by now. But someone who has played everything since EQ, will know what to keep and what to throw out, and what is not good in either example and needs to be reinvented. Has Brad played The Secret World, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Tera, Mechwarrior Online, World of Tanks, League of Legends, GW2, and the million others? Because I really want a game by someone who has played all that and can see it in perspective compared to EQ.

All those games did something great, it just happened to be along side lots of not so great stuff. But yeah, we will see how it goes. I wish them luck too because there's not much else to play!

well.. let's be real here Pops.. you did used to say there was no money in an EQ sequel. Actually, a lot of people fell back on that argument for why a game like EQ will never be made. We are going to find out soon hopefully. You won't admit it but you've moved a bit to the dark side. I don't remember everything but you were also hard to pin down at times... Either way.. I hope Brad has a successful niche game and starts the next trend in the industry.

Fish1_sl said:

At this point I just hope Brad is a real gamer. Because if he played games in the 80s and then came up with his own idea in the 90's and now just wants to relive that glory, it's not gonna work. Because as cool as EQ was, it's pretty damn dated by now. But someone who has played everything since EQ, will know what to keep and what to throw out, and what is not good in either example and needs to be reinvented. Has Brad played The Secret World, SWTOR, Aion, Rift, Tera, Mechwarrior Online, World of Tanks, League of Legends, GW2, and the million others? Because I really want a game by someone who has played all that and can see it in perspective compared to EQ.

All those games did something great, it just happened to be along side lots of not so great stuff. But yeah, we will see how it goes. I wish them luck too because there's not much else to play!

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I hope he doesn't and just uses his knowledge and instincts. I don't want a game with a "little of everything", I want the same vision he had for both Everquest and Vanguard. Structurally they were both successes.

Merlin_sl said:

I hope he doesn't and just uses his knowledge and instincts. I don't want a game with a "little of everything", I want the same vision he had for both Everquest and Vanguard. Structurally they were both successes.

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All I want is that sense of danger again, but in a mmo. Very few games have ever put me on the edge of my seat, with my full attention focused on what might be around the next corner, tree, or rock. Only one mmo ever did that for me and it was EQ1.

But EQ1 (classic, not current) done again isn't enough to bring back that feeling, even though it does have many of the right ingredients. You have to also be aware of the modern audience.

Everyone, even non-gamers, is much more knowedgeble about what computers are capable of. And because of the graphic nature of modern entertainment, eveyone is also desensitized to many things that we all found dangerous many years ago. Even so, it really wouldn't be that hard to create that sense of danger again. Just don't follow the herd of pussies that make mmo's in today's market.

Make the gameplay somewhat unpredictable, bring back consequence, keep some of your design cards close to the vest, and don't promise anyone anything. Just build the fucking thing and we will play it.

Convo_sl said:

well.. let's be real here Pops.. you did used to say there was no money in an EQ sequel.

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Whaaaa? EQ2 is making plenty of money (singular).

I don't think there's any money in trying to 'remake' EQ, which is what I argue against. Nor a sequel, at this point, because WoW WAS the successful EQ sequel. It's just that WoW improved and perfected the instanced aspects of EQ, and did so well in implementation those design decisions got more credit than they should. Compared to Vanguard's failure, where those persistant, open-world design decisions get a bad rap due to them not implementing anything well, particularly infrastructure.

So, it's not about making an EQ sequel, and the people who get caught up on EQ being anything but a paragraph on Brad's resume are missing the point. It's really, at this point, about making a Vanguard sequel, or just making Vanguard right. Vanguard was all the things people pining for EQ want (while those same people ignore all the fucking instancing and fast travel and shit that WoW stole from EQ).

But, it's not good to get caught up in definitions and proper nouns, as it leads to a lot of assumptions and explanations of what our personal definitions are, not to mention old wounds. What we need is a successor to the persistent, open-world tradition that EQ, as well as other, early mmorpg's started. Why? Because if done right, why couldn't that style of game help fill the void that currently exists in the market?

So, yeah, I suppose I stand by the idea there would be no money in an EQ sequel at this point. Because that ship has sailed in the case of WoW, and sunk in the case of Vanguard. What we need now is a successor to game mechanics and systems, not a sequel to an IP or Name.

Merlin_sl said:

I hope he doesn't and just uses his knowledge and instincts. I don't want a game with a "little of everything", I want the same vision he had for both Everquest and Vanguard. Structurally they were both successes.

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But if his knowledge only goes up to about 2001, that can't end well. I love EQ, will always have a special place in my heart for it. But would I want to play it all over again? Not really. I've already played it to death now, levelled every class to 50+, sometimes more than once. But the main motivation that hooked me along originally, is not as strong now. Originally I was very motivated by the "keeping up with the jones'" thing and keen to see where the journey lead me. But now when I play EQ Mac or something, as soon as it reaches 50 and starts to really become a very slow grind, I just can't be bothered any more. I've already been through a hardcore grind more than once, and I know that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. As great as EQ is, there's only so long you can play the same thing. So I don't think a lick of fresh paint would be enough for me. I really need some new directions, just made with the philosophy of the original game and not the newer instant gratification ones.

That said, I want him to know modern games not because I want a bit of everything but so he knows what works and what doesn't. Like Rift for example, that had a bit of everything, but the consequence was spreading itself way too thin. It had Battlegrounds (Warfronts) but only a few, and they mostly sucked and were small. It had dungeons but only several and they were very linear and had bad replayability because it was identical every time. It had world changing stuff that ended up being nothing but a lame gimmick. They had everything but the consequence was that nothing was really 'good' and there was very little high level content.

Brad bit off more than he could chew with Vanguard, they wanted ships and flying mounts and all kinds of stuff which ultimately did very little to add to the game for most players but must have taken a LOT of development time. If he tries to have warfronts and high quality quests in this game, then it's likely going to suffer the same issues. He also basically gave in and made a WoW clone by the end. It had the same auction house, and they put the quest grind in at the last minute which made it just another MMO.

If he was still a full time gamer he would know that the quest grind thing has been done 1000 times now, and trying to be like everyone else is not much fun for the player, even if you do succeed.

Grim1_sl said:

Very few games have ever put me on the edge of my seat, with my full attention focused on what might be around the next corner, tree, or rock. Only one mmo ever did that for me and it was EQ1.

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First person.

That one mechanic alone was huge. People bitch about not being able to see the ass of their mangina fantasy, but seriously, the reason people want third-person is because it's easier. Not better. Easier. I played an ugly ass Ogre around the time the feasible scroll-back third person view hit EQ. I didn't want to stare at my character's ass, but I sure as hell used that limited third-person view because of it's advantages.

Even shitty games with first person are far more immersive and edge-of-your-seat than the most polished and well-designed third-person games available. Forcing yourself to play in first-person in games that implement it even half-heartily greatly improves the experience. I just hope it's time developers find more creative solutions to first-person limitations than taking the easy way out and just going for third-person. Give us better implementation, better sound, better field of vision (with stuff like 3 monitor surround). Give us something more than the same shit we've come to expect and yawn over.

And this is where all the EQ loyalists start to hem and haw...

popsicledeath_sl said:

First person.

That one mechanic alone was huge. People bitch about not being able to see the ass of their mangina fantasy, but seriously, the reason people want third-person is because it's easier. Not better. Easier. I played an ugly ass Ogre around the time the feasible scroll-back third person view hit EQ. I didn't want to stare at my character's ass, but I sure as hell used that limited third-person view because of it's advantages.

Even shitty games with first person are far more immersive and edge-of-your-seat than the most polished and well-designed third-person games available. Forcing yourself to play in first-person in games that implement it even half-heartily greatly improves the experience. I just hope it's time developers find more creative solutions to first-person limitations than taking the easy way out and just going for third-person. Give us better implementation, better sound, better field of vision (with stuff like 3 monitor surround). Give us something more than the same shit we've come to expect and yawn over.

And this is where all the EQ loyalists start to hem and haw...

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First person is the best option it makes things harder and more immersive. but does any dev have the balls to go with forced first person? I dont think so.

I really believe that as we keep having this discussion over and over again, that most of us claiming we want this and that, really don't....or we'd be playing the games that have it. It's just those games aren't big or popular, or as highly polished. Why? Because there's not AAA money it.

Mortal Online has forced first person, btw.

I woundnt mind some 1st person dungeons. When it's designed for 1st person it could be badass. I don't want the whole game like that tho.

gogojira_sl said:

I want a new one that isn't broken shit. I don't play the ones available often because they are either 14-years-old or suck. And the 14-year-old ones morphed into something vastly different so I play emulated versions of the old days.

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exactly. classic EQ more satisfying than anything else out there at the moment.

I cant play classic eq anymore though, its to outdated. Tried to multiple times.

I have a great conspiracy theory.

EQ Mac is set to close 11/18/13. I theorize that Brad talked Smedley into closing EQ Mac. Brad's grand vision is to close down EQ Mac, persecute project 1999 so that all the nerds clinging on to "classic everquest" will have no other choice but to play his game.

I figured it out.

Rhuobhe_sl said:

I have a great conspiracy theory.

EQ Mac is set to close 11/18/13. I theorize that Brad talked Smedley into closing EQ Mac. Brad's grand vision is to close down EQ Mac, persecute project 1999 so that all the nerds clinging on to "classic everquest" will have no other choice but to play his game.

I figured it out.

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Not bad, not bad.

Rhuobhe_sl said:

I have a great conspiracy theory.

EQ Mac is set to close 11/18/13. I theorize that Brad talked Smedley into closing EQ Mac. Brad's grand vision is to close down EQ Mac, persecute project 1999 so that all the nerds clinging on to "classic everquest" will have no other choice but to play his game.

I figured it out.

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False. Probably some gay Landmark connection though.

Whatever Brad's game turns out to be , it will not subtract 15 years from your current age .

Bruman_sl said:

I really believe that as we keep having this discussion over and over again, that most of us claiming we want this and that, really don't....or we'd be playing the games that have it. It's just those games aren't big or popular, or as highly polished. Why? Because there's not AAA money it.

Mortal Online has forced first person, btw.

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Yes but for that one good point there are many many problems with MO. The issue it seems all theses games release bad and broken and are often still broken. Maybe theses are just excuses but I think a well made somewhat polished niche MMO has a chance. Im not sure people are wanting AAA they are just wanting to not play broken games.