Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

I don't think lowering the pledge sends the message people want. Brad is going to either figure shit out by listening to people he knows are critical, but often right about these things, or that he'll never get it. If you don't believe he'll ever get it, then pull your pledges and feel free to spare everyone the fucking emo press release.

If you feel it's time to jump ship, then jump. Not really my concern and I'm not going to beg you to stay. I could give a shit. If the project isn't strong enough to get the right amount of backing, then it's not strong enough. That's on them, not me. This isn't about me, and I'm not going to try to make it about me.

Lowering a pledge to prove a point because someone wants this game so bad is counter productive. All it's going to do is fuel the told-you-this-would-fail crowd. We know how important momentum is with things like gamers and forums and teh internetz. The second the crowd turns, there's no going back. Helping the general impression turn south helps how? And for what?

My guess is a lot of the people here (and elsewhere) pulling (or saying they are) their pledge where never really that into it anyhow, and just wanted to play along and have a reason for drama. My guess is a lot of gamers, as we've seen proven time and again, are more happy when they're miserable and have nothing to play. But that's nothing new and is to be expected with every release where dumb fuckers eat up a game and then finally post some emo bullshit how they're sorry to see this game just hasn't lived up to their expectations. Blah blah.

But generally, does putting oneself in a position to NOT be a backer of a project, or less of a backer, really put you in more of a power position? Does threatening to stop supporting something cast more fear than actual unhappy supporters? All this drama reminds me of all the assholes I know who are basically willful swing voters because they like to make everything all about them. Oh, I'm important because I'm too fucking dumb or cowardly to ever make up my mind. Better shower me with attention to win me over! What I call them is NON-voters who are attention whores.

Fuck that.

If Pantheon needs to resort to pandering to people drawing attention to themselves and away from the project, then the game was too mediocre or on the cusp of failure that it's not worth it, imo, and can rot in the minds of has-beens. It really is so very baller to threaten to pull your pledge, though. I mean, what with the fact we're all playing with Monopoly money at this point. Which is why I find it repeatedly dumb when people talk big talk about how much they've pledge and how much they'll NOT pledge. Just pledge, or don't, and shut the fuck up and discuss the project, not your own pretend finances.

In general, though, back to forum think-tanking... What would be more powerful? Someone saying they're NO LONGER a supporter or LESS of a supporter, so you better listen to them, or else? What, are you going to pull your pledge so hard they own YOU money? Or someone saying they still ARE a supporter, but....

So, to be a hypocrite: Brad, I'm still in for $600, but..... I want you to know your kickstarter has been shit, needs improved, and we need to seeing some inkling the actual GAME won't be the same level of shit. If, when we start FINALLY getting information on the actual GAME, it does start to look like the same level of shit, then I'll pull my pledge like a man and not put out a press release on a forum as if it were all about me from the start. I'll at least wait for more on the GAME before doing what I won't threaten to do, because right now I'm still a month away from being "ripped off" and to pull or threaten to pull the money that I haven't actually spent is chickenshit.


For those of you who skipped all that shit and went for the summary: pulling a pledge when you really want the project to succeed will just help defeat the project and continue our self-fulfilling destiny as miserable gamers with nothing to play. At least stick it out until the actual GAME starts looking like shit.

I don't plan to pull my backing, but the "will be people give me a million dollars because I made Everquest" experiment seems to be failing. They need to actually work more than once a week in a garage and come up with something to show people to get this kinda money. Games with a lot less name recognition have done a lot better on kickstarter.

Also the biggest point of failure for this whole thing is they refuse to complete the following sentence. "We're only asking for 800k, which we know is not enough to launch this game, but don't worry - we will get additional funding from ___________, which we expect will cover the other _________ it will require to complete this project." Without answering this fundamental question, what type of security do people get that this will ever launch?

fuffalo_sl said:

I don't plan to pull my backing, but the "will be people give me a million dollars because I made Everquest" experiment seems to be failing. They need to actually work more than once a week in a garage and come up with something to show people to get this kinda money. Games with a lot less name recognition have done a lot better on kickstarter.

Also the biggest point of failure for this whole thing is they refuse to complete the following sentence. "We're only asking for 800k, which we know is not enough to launch this game, but don't worry - we will get additional funding from ___________, which we expect will cover the other _________ it will require to complete this project." Without answering this fundamental question, what type of security do people get that this will ever launch?

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What will most likely happen is that the Kickstarter will get funded and then they'll be able to sell more stuff from their website to continue funding the project's development. They focus on developing a solid, well constructed game even if it only features one continent, 4 races and 7 classes; if what they initually release ends up being a solid game they can release the game and charge subscriptions to fund the development of new content. If you assume the subscription fee will be $15/month the game actually wont need too large of a player base to fund this development. With just 20,000 players paying $15/month they could bring in $300,000/month or $3,600,000 a year which should be sufficient to maintain the game and fund future development and get to all of the other features they wanted to put into the game.

1/18

Aradune_sl said:

Lots should happen Monday. Can't go into details now, sorry.

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1/20

Aradune_sl said:

PC Gamer and new press release in the morning. That's all I can say right now from the shadows of the night.

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Aradune_sl said:

We are told today or tomorrow at the latest.

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1/22

Aradune_sl said:

Hoping for PC Gamer article tomorrow -- they're running late and have a lot of stories to get up.

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It's not just about the PC gamer article, "a lot should happen Monday" has essentially amounted to a vague class release, an anemic dungeon picture and I think a minor Q&A that avoided any specifics and once more focused on very, very vague assertions. People are now hoping that the PCgamer article is actually the place where the specifics have been crammed, and the more it's delayed, the bigger that hope gets--but creating that hype train is a severe mismanagement of a social media campaign. Again, you're supposed to be building confidence among the people backing you, carefully controlling the crowd in the "crowd funding". You don't do that by missing important dates, and then under-delivering with anticipated information--or worse yet, building up hype and THEN under-delivering.

This is why a lot of Kick starter campaigns use media very differently from how a game in production would use it. The goals of the media are completely different. You're not juggling customers here, Brad. You're juggling a fucked up quasi investo-customer-donor. You need to alter your methodology. PCgamer isn't going to get you funded--little nerdy message boards will. And a lot of those places have turned pretty pessimisitic (Hopping around to MMORPG, Darkfall and a few other boards--already threads or posts popping up essentially saying the KS sucks. Again, your vague assertions are useful for a production game, not a KS.)

Update: did a lot of interviews today for various sites (this is one of our focus points this week and an important one). Also visited a lot of other sites, fb pages, etc. Anyway, just wanted to let you guys know I'm still around but I can't always follow and keep up with this site, at least not daily. I will be around though. Thanks.

Lithose_sl said:

It's not just about the PC gamer article, "a lot should happen Monday has essentially been a vague class release, an anemic dungeon picture and I think a minor Q&A that avoided any specifics and once more focused on very, very vague assertions. People are now hoping that the PCgamer article is actually the place where the specifics have been crammed, and the more it's delayed, the bigger that hope gets--but creating that hype train is a severe mismanagement of a social media campaign. Again, you're supposed to be building confidence among the people backing you, carefully controlling the crowd in the "crowd funding". You don't do that by missing important dates, and then under-delivering with anticipated information.

This is why a lot of Kick starter campaigns use media very differently from how a game in production would use it. The goals of the media are completely different. You're not juggling customers here, Brad. You're juggling a fucked up quasi investo-customer-donor. You need to alter your methodology. PCgamer isn't going to get you funded--little nerdy message boards will. And a lot of those places have turned pretty pessimisitic (Hopping around to MMORPG, Darkfall and a few other boards--already threads or posts popping up essentially saying the KS sucks. Again, your vague assertions are useful for a production game, not a KS.)

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Hopefully this delayed PCgamer article has taught him not to rely on such outlets with the clock ticking. The best place to post new information about his game is on the kickstarter page and he should be posting as much of it as he can as soon as he can. The more excited he can get people about the game now; the more people will spread the word. Going forward he must do.

Aradune_sl said:

Update: did a lot of interviews today for various sites (this is one of our focus points this week and an important one). Also visited a lot of other sites, fb pages, etc. Anyway, just wanted to let you guys know I'm still around but I can't always follow and keep up with this site, at least not daily. I will be around though. Thanks.

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Are you saying you missed my photoshop?!?!

Aradune_sl said:

Update: did a lot of interviews today for various sites (this is one of our focus points this week and an important one). Also visited a lot of other sites, fb pages, etc. Anyway, just wanted to let you guys know I'm still around but I can't always follow and keep up with this site, at least not daily. I will be around though. Thanks.

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What sites? A list would be good, post it here post it everywhere.

Boozecube_sl said:

The problem here is this is an assumption and while it might be a decent one it would be much better if they took the time to spell it out. They could do what you said, or they could plan on selling it out once they get it far enough along that a major studio will buy it, or they could go on a $800k coke binge in Vegas, nobody really fucking knows except Brad and he isn't telling.

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Hopefully he gets asked that question in one of those interviews he claimed to have done and answers it forthright. Hopefully these interviews are posted soon(tm) and that going forward they will stop relying on press releases and focus much more on posting new information(and lots of it) directly on their kickstarter page. The sooner he does this the better and the more time he'll have to turn this campaign around and get it funded.

From the Kickstarter comment section:

Yes, please try Vanguard if you haven't or if it's been a long time. The client and server code is much more optimized and polished. The only problem is the world is a bit underpopulated, but, you know, if all of those who pledged logged in to check it out, it would likely have a very healthy population (and some great people). Btw, the only thing I get from you trying out Vanguard is 1. Pantheon's foundation is Vanguard and EQ, and so it's sort of like getting a preview, and 2. because Vanguard and EQ still hold a special place in my heart. I don't get a penny for convincing people to try Vanguard, though -- just wanted to make sure that's clear

Thanks all, -Brad

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Maybe Ut was half right. But SOE isn't backing Pantheon. It's just a marketing technique to have thousands of nostalgic suckers get their hopes up for Pantheon only to be so disappointed they realize Vanguard was the last not-entirely-un-hardcore game of the genre, at which point they'll all finally give Vanguard a second chance! Brad is secretly working for Vanguard!

Zaven_sl said:

Well said. Unfortunately this forum has many trolls that do nothing but spew garbage and complain about everything. The mods here do nothing about it and let them shit up every thread they want to.

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Dead Jan 14 faggots. If you hate this board so much, why did you register here to shit in this thread? Where was your support for this game before Jan 14? Notice this thread was created in September 13. That's four fucking months you did nothing about this game while we were praising it like the second coming of Christ.

So fuck you, we're the fans, you're the bandwagon fanbois. The fans as in actual sports fans who will say "I love the Browns, but they fucking suck", as opposed to the Fanbois who will support this game without any criticism or questioning on your part, oblivious to the fact that you are not enough in number alone to carry this game to the end.

fuffalo_sl said:

I don't plan to pull my backing, but the "will be people give me a million dollars because I made Everquest" experiment seems to be failing. They need to actually work more than once a week in a garage and come up with something to show people to get this kinda money. Games with a lot less name recognition have done a lot better on kickstarter.

Also the biggest point of failure for this whole thing is they refuse to complete the following sentence. "We're only asking for 800k, which we know is not enough to launch this game, but don't worry - we will get additional funding from ___________, which we expect will cover the other _________ it will require to complete this project." Without answering this fundamental question, what type of security do people get that this will ever launch?

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They have addressed their further funding plans on KS.

Popsicle, very well said. I think people rage pulling their pledge are not doing what they think they are doing, unless they think they are purposefully sabotaging the product.

Part of me tells me people's extreme emotions as it relates to a spiritual successor of EQ are so strong and in some cases irrational that even if it got funded, that collective emotion would probably persist as a negative presence on the development of the game.

I can't imagine the fun of pre alpha game testing, and alpha testing if players are going to freak out every time part of the game being built does not go their way. Especially since most issues do not have a consensus.

The reality is the collective desires of the alleged hardcore community is much more nebulous and unclear then even the current plans for the game.

Personally, I pledged and will see what happens over the next thirty days or so. If the project evolves into something I can not see myself supporting then I will make that decision when I have the most information possible.

Popsicle is spot on when he notes that people rage pulling pledges due to frustration are potentially, irreparably damaging the kick starter. This includes many people who have said over and over again that they were supporting this as a flier or last gasp to the mmog world. Nothing today changed that reality as far as I can tell.

Again people can do what they want. I base my observations on the very convincing positions many of you itt put forward many times previous to today.