Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Denaut · Jan 25, 2014

popsicledeath_sl said:
I've always appreciated your input as an industry veteran, because you sounded like one. But now, you're dipping into typical forum arguments. I understand you're just human like the rest of us who aren't sub-human, but parroting the bullshit the average fucktard on mmorpg.com parrots isn't something to be proud of.

Unless you honestly think people mean every iteration of EQ when they talk about wanting certain, specific aspects from classic EQ. If that's the case, someone is either trolling on your account, you had a traumatic brain injury, or you just got sick of giving sound, insider perspectives that we've seen from you in the past and decided to go lowest-common-denominator on our asses.

That was always a risk coming into this thread. I am trying to extricate myself from this situation elegantly, but that ship has pretty much already sailed. I actually never read MMORPG.com, pretty much rerolled and RPS are the only gaming related places I lurk, so I don't know what their standard arguments are.

Classic EQ had a lot going for it, and much of that is what actually made parts of Vanguard good. Vanguard was a bit like the Wild West of making games, you kind of just did whatever you wanted. Because of that some really great stuff emerged, but the consequence of that is all the bad stuff that comes alongside it. That bad stuff is what ultimately sunk the game. And that was with millions of dollars behind it. I just don't think it is in the cards anymore.

popsicledeath · Jan 25, 2014

Denaut_sl said:
It is more like EQ has been remade dozens of times. It has more iterations of it than any other kind of MMORPG. The current biggest budget MMORPGs coming out soon, TESO and Wildstar, are both iterations of EQ. If, after all these tries, despite all the money and effort being thrown at them, no one has been able to match how you feel about those old school games, maybe it isn't the games themselves.

And the newest Dodge Charger is an iteration of the last, which was an iteration of a Model-T, so isn't worth designing, selling or owning? I mean, it's just ripping off horse and buggy anyhow, and at least those got better gas mileage, so why bother with a fucking car! Why, damn, if you wanted that first experience my grandma should probably just hitch up a horse and buggy and stop driving a car on Sunday for enjoyment!

The problem is the iterations of EQ we're getting, especially what EQ became becoming it's own iterations of itself, isn't the stuff we want. So, yeah, maybe Pantheon is just another iteration of EQ, but if it's designed off the things we haven't been getting in other iterations, and instead focuses on the things people wanted from EQ and haven't been getting, then maybe it becomes a good game?

How literal and dense do you have to be if you're in a creative industry. Imagine every book publisher or agent just telling everything that comes through that it's just an iteration or rehash of something else that's remotely similar. Or movie exec, etc. Everyone would be like "yeah, no shit, now is it good enough or not you dumb fucker?" Because that's what creation is. Taking something, or from many somethings, and making something different enough or new enough (not new, just new enough) that people want it. That's what Brad did with EQ, and it was a success and didn't fail just because it was a new iteration of MUDs, which were derived from DnD, which was created from Tolkien, which was ripped off from Mythology, which was taken from that local storyteller/philosopher, etc.

We call bad rippoffs shit, and good ripoffs revolutionary. That's just the way it is. All Pantheon needs to do is deliver the things we haven't been getting in a focused, stable package, and it can be new enough to be a good game.

BoozeCube · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
I agree , and also Merlin you aren't the only one about VG in your post , I enjoyed lots of the areas of VG scenery and music.

I'll throw out my very uncommon preference, and be prepared to get lol'd and shit on............ I honestly don't care about raids. There I said it.

Explanation , yes have raids, large hard dungeons and so on, but don't spend 50% of the development time on them. In EQ the amount of time I spent leveling , twinking an alt , buffing others , running around just looking for shit , far , far outweighs the overall time I spent in any plane. I think it would be ok for them to spend more time on the world , the leveling starting at the moment you log on, and so on , and not spend huge amounts of the development time for raid X at max level.

I realize I'm about to get the virtual rotten tomatoes thrown at me , and am ready

(also on the actual raids thing , I much prefer open world , bring 90 people if you want , the entire guild , have fun with it , if you can bring 20 and get it done great also , make that the challenge , the less people the better chance of loot , but zerg it also if you want with all your friends )

I don't think you would find that to be that unpopular of an opinion, there is more to these games than just raiding. When you focus on it to much you end up with WOW where pretty much that's all there is, and when that's all there is you have to devolve it down to LFR, FLEX, Normal, Heroic ect.. I miss having one version of a boss and that's it. I also am willing to bet a game that was just a lobby to queue and kill raid bosses would be successful to a certain group as well, because that's almost what WOW is now.

In EQ it wasn't always about the loot, people came from all around to help people finish the Coldain shawl quest because the whole zone erupted into a crazy ass war, where the dwarf city was empty if you failed. It was dynamic encounters that effected the game world if even for a short time that was pretty amazing. If he was talking about recreating experiences like that I would probably throw in money despite him not knowing how they were going to accomplish it but like many of you I am a big fan of that game.

Aeiouy_sl · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
Apologies ahead of time for the multiple quotes , but I can't not chime in and am playing the usual catch-up.

My instant thought was exactly the same. When I read "convince Brad to do an honest interview with Boogie" early KS screw ups screamed through my head. Surely to hell Brad realizes he should need no convincing and just doooo iittt. Be completely open , don't have canned answers ready. Fuck , do a reveal all on VG to now and your plans and so on. Doing that and getting this guy pushing Pantheon would bring it into stretch goal possibilities (low ones granted) if done soon and done well.

I agree with the idea that he will catch some flack during production of "you said it would be like EQ and X Y and Z aren't, LIAR!!. But I think the positives of pushing the EQ side far outweigh the negatives.

I read the earlier stuff about the Unreal Engine bit , and while I'm a Sys Engineer and know zero about programming beyond scripting (or Apple II E 10 goto 20 skiing Ascii programs ), I played the hell out of Lineage 2 and City of Heroes and if I'm not mistaken both were Unreal based engines. I always thought the Unreal Engines were great performing engines. Maybe it just didn't work well with the ideas of Vanguard , but using a prebuilt and stable engine to me seems the way to go to make an mmo.

Now , between the Boogie , GU stuff and positive signs I think I'll go ahead and jump back on the KS at the 250 range. If it continues a great trend I can up it to 375 or 500 , not going to pull it unless it goes to stupid right at the end and even then will at worst go to 45. Maybe screwing up the KS and getting screamed at for it will end up being a better learning experience instead of getting the cash thrown at him and not having to change it and learn from it.

It seems like a minor thing , but I really hope Brad and team know to not let the alpha forums/feedback turn into the sycophant level of the main 10 or so KS posters who scream YEAH AWESOME at the first word of any update. There's GOT to be allowed and discussed criticism in the closed process.

So back on the roller coaster ride here now for good at 250 , hoping to go up , worst case to 45 although I think (hope) Brad's team will continue this type of turnaround the remaining weeks.

Welcome back aboard. My thoughts on alpha feedback including a contingent of do no wrong feedback is to just ignore and not engage. It becomes easy to get called offsides by people in such cases but instead of feuding with people who appear to be unable to see any negatives, just move past them and provide your own feedback. Too often sides skirmish, people pullback to more extreme positions and the developers just ignore everyone. Feedback doesn't always need to be hypercritical or only flaw related any more than it always needs to be sunshine and puppy dogs. Yet people clash and their positions widen and the discussion becomes useless as feedback.

People testing and in alpha need to provide honest and coherent feedback and not get pulled offsides by others. I know how easy it is to dismiss someone whom you believe is wrong and/or offering bad advice. I have had my moments of being sucked in. However I am working to improve that by providing focused feedback from my testing. I will try to avoid just getting into random theorycrafting arguments no matter how hard it might be to avoid.

It may even require a liberal use of forum ignore mechanics.

tad10 · Jan 25, 2014

Denaut_sl said:
We are just going to have to disagree. People in general are incredibly bad at knowing what they really want or judging what will make them happy. Those running around Rerolled are much more astute and accurate about these things but even then we are all often very wrong.

People often behave in a way that is contrary to their words, usually without realizing it.

Denaut you ignorant slut,

We were never talking about"people in general" we are talking about a niche MMORPG being developed for a niche audience. If you're going to go Ut on us, at least have the good taste and decency to stay on topic.

popsicledeath · Jan 25, 2014

Denaut_sl said:
Like, say a 3rd person shooter MMO with forced grouping really good non-instanced dungeon crawling. Stuff like that isn't going to come from where we are all looking.

So, it'll be a 'shooter' instead of 'fantasy' and that will be the ground-breaking difference. Got it. Thanks.

Merlin_sl · Jan 25, 2014

Boozecube_sl said:
In EQ it wasn't always about the loot, people came from all around to help people finish the Coldain shawl quest because the whole zone erupted into a crazy ass war, where the dwarf city was empty if you failed. It was dynamic encounters that effected the game world if even for a short time that was pretty amazing. If he was talking about recreating experiences like that I would probably throw in money despite him not knowing how they were going to accomplish it but like many of you I am a big fan of that game.

Playing from 00' to 05' I never got to experience that as I wanted to. I joined the top guild on the server and one afternoon someones 3rd alt or some shit needed it done so we all ran down there. I hadn't been playing with them very long but I tell ya, and anyone who has played in a topend raiding guild knows this, they are playing a different game then everyone else. Its just......different. They (I had no idea what I was doing at the time, never did the encounter before) fucking destroyed that encounter and I'm betting half of them were afk watching tv doing it. I wish actually I got to do that on a lower level because it sounded like fun.

zzeris · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
As usual Troy is coming up with better ideas than most of the internal team (even if I'm back in I'm still allowed to be snide and snarky , fuck the whole world thinks RR posters are evil incarnate and that image must be kept up).

He just posted these ideas for tiers , and I truly would bump from my 375 to the 450 instantly , and would consider the 800 heavily.

"Salim, make sure the new tiers added today include these:

$175: another in-game item: a shield

$225: another in-game item: a cosmetic illusion mask (like Guise of the Deceiver)

$400: name a building (like an Inn or Cleric's Guild or Store)

$450: both accounts you get have a lifetime $1 subscription

$800: get to tell us how the NPC you get to name should look in-game as well as any story behind the him/her and what type of zone he/she should appear in."

I totally agree. He has been on point the entire time. Sad to see such good options not even being looked at because they are superior to what is available by far.

Convo · Jan 25, 2014

This thread is getting beyond ridiculous lol.. Why is it every time things start looking up, it's dragged back down with speculation and hypotheticals? Stay on topic people! Lol.. Anyway predictions on combat doc?

Mr Creed · Jan 25, 2014

Flight_sl said:
For a lot of us that isn't what we want. We're just looking for a group centric MMO that is driven by the designers instead of another 5 years of people being driven by profit and trying to copy all sorts of features from WoW (that was you that put loot token into AoC raiding wasn't it ?).

You don't think he's someones alt account ? Let's play hangman... U t n _ _ _ n

You think Ut could go 10 posts in this thread especially without personally adressing Brad's past, "relic designers" in general or claiming to have inside sources? I dont think he could manage that.

Dahkoht_sl said:
I agree , and also Merlin you aren't the only one about VG in your post , I enjoyed lots of the areas of VG scenery and music.

I'll throw out my very uncommon preference, and be prepared to get lol'd and shit on............ I honestly don't care about raids. There I said it.

Meh, dont care much for raids, they're a genre staple so I dont mind them but if they left them out I I'd be ok with that too. Raided hardcore from Velious to GoD and dont need that again.

AmberT._sl · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
As usual Troy is coming up with better ideas than most of the internal team (even if I'm back in I'm still allowed to be snide and snarky , fuck the whole world thinks RR posters are evil incarnate and that image must be kept up).

He just posted these ideas for tiers , and I truly would bump from my 375 to the 450 instantly , and would consider the 800 heavily.

"Salim, make sure the new tiers added today include these:

$175: another in-game item: a shield

$225: another in-game item: a cosmetic illusion mask (like Guise of the Deceiver)

$400: name a building (like an Inn or Cleric's Guild or Store)

$450: both accounts you get have a lifetime $1 subscription

$800: get to tell us how the NPC you get to name should look in-game as well as any story behind the him/her and what type of zone he/she should appear in."

I would love to see those tiers added.

Mr Creed · Jan 25, 2014

Convo_sl said:
combat doc?

There should be a rule against mentioning that without quoting the picture.

popsicledeath · Jan 25, 2014

Merlin_sl said:
I agree. This first kiss argument is crap. Funny how I (however far in the minority I am) felt damn near the same way in Vanguard I did in EQ. The music in Hathor Zi was epic and the sounds of my slaying little critters, and running to the tents to sell my useless crap.....it was damn near like killing rats and snakes in front of Qeynos and running around the corner to sell in that store......so actually, yes, it can be done. Was it EQ? No, of course not, but I played the shit out of it and loved every second.
I also played GW2, for about 1 hour and hated it. So it is game mechanics rather then a hymen I'm after.

Me too. Main differences:

EQ I had to actually look to the world to figure shit out.

Vanguard I had to actually look to the world to figure shit out.

GW2, I had to look at my UI and it usually told me everything, but when it didn't or when I ignored what I was being told it wasn't bad, but eventually I couldn't ignore the programming.

FFARR, I had to look at the UI and in-game markers and never read a shred of quest dialog, never look at anything other than the compass pointing me where to go, and barely even had to look at what mobs I was fighting except to target the ones I was being told to target by the UI and practically with the assurance I wasn't going to die if I kept hitting my 'do damage' hotkey.

Some people loved bad things they didn't actually love in EQ because it was their first time. Most of us want a certain kind of game play and can let it develop into love if it's delivered. We're not all ignorance, naive virgins who never have sex after the first time, or never get over our first and are constantly trying to pick up high school girls. Most of us just want a woman that's good enough to love and is willing to suck a dick now and again. Vanguard was that woman, but with teeth. I want the teeth removed, please. (and yes, teeth for all of us is different. WoW removed a ton of teeth, but is now just a lifeless blowup doll that is always willing... that's not sport! And some of us love these games for the sport of it).

K13R · Jan 25, 2014

Denaut_sl said:
That was always a risk coming into this thread. I am trying to extricate myself from this situation elegantly, but that ship has pretty much already sailed. I actually never read MMORPG.com, pretty much rerolled and RPS are the only gaming related places I lurk, so I don't know what their standard arguments are.

Classic EQ had a lot going for it, and much of that is what actually made parts of Vanguard good. Vanguard was a bit like the Wild West of making games, you kind of just did whatever you wanted. Because of that some really great stuff emerged, but the consequence of that is all the bad stuff that comes alongside it. That bad stuff is what ultimately sunk the game. And that was with millions of dollars behind it. I just don't think it is in the cards anymore.

Just roll out bro as your basically preaching to the choir at this point the other 1/2 well have to watch the dream crash and burn in a spectacular fashion... Which is why I am here to giggle when they got to pick up the pieces.(yeah I donated to KS just cause of the future entertainment value of this thread)

Convo · Jan 25, 2014

K13R_sl said:
Just roll out bro as your basically preaching to the choir at this point the other 1/2 well have to watch the dreams crash and burn in a spectacular... Which is why I am here to giggle when they got to pick up the pieces.(yeah I donated to KS just cause of the future entertainment value of this thread)

Sure you did...lol

Aeiouy_sl · Jan 25, 2014

Convo_sl said:
This thread is getting beyond ridiculous lol.. Why is it every time things start looking up, it's dragged back down with speculation and hypotheticals? Stay on topic people! Lol.. Anyway predictions on combat doc?

Kick and taunt will be keys.

BoozeCube · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
As usual Troy is coming up with better ideas than most of the internal team (even if I'm back in I'm still allowed to be snide and snarky , fuck the whole world thinks RR posters are evil incarnate and that image must be kept up).

He just posted these ideas for tiers , and I truly would bump from my 375 to the 450 instantly , and would consider the 800 heavily.

"Salim, make sure the new tiers added today include these:

$175: another in-game item: a shield

$225: another in-game item: a cosmetic illusion mask (like Guise of the Deceiver)

$400: name a building (like an Inn or Cleric's Guild or Store)

$450: both accounts you get have a lifetime $1 subscription

$800: get to tell us how the NPC you get to name should look in-game as well as any story behind the him/her and what type of zone he/she should appear in."

They might want to save them so they still have rewards to hand out for the 2nd-14th kickstarter to raise more money after they spend this all in a couple of months.

popsicledeath · Jan 25, 2014

Dahkoht_sl said:
I honestly don't care about raids. There I said it.

I think raids are what a lot of us do when we don't have much else to do and are subconsciously ready to burn ourselves out.

Khane · Jan 25, 2014

I don't really care much about raids either. I'd rather have awesome group content than awesome raid content.

Big Flex · Jan 25, 2014

Convo_sl said:
This thread is getting beyond ridiculous lol.. Why is it every time things start looking up, it's dragged back down with speculation and hypotheticals? Stay on topic people! Lol.. Anyway predictions on combat doc?

prediction: much like players, pets will have a secondary specialization the player can activate, for instance the crusader's squire can additionally act as a fluffer.

Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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