Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Fish1_sl

shitlord
188
0
i started exercising because of EQ downtime. seriously. i'm playing one day and my dad walks in and asks me wtf my character is doing, i told him he was sitting recovering. Hes like "do some fucking pushups or something then while you wait, dont just sit on your ass." so I did. At the end of that winter, after busting out diamond pushups and bicycle crunches and shit while medding or auto running across WK, I walked into my first gym.

We wouldn't have childhood obesity if it wasn't for action combat and fast regen says I.
Exactly. You have to ask yourselves, do you want to be a statuesque EQ player? Or a fat WoW kid? It's simple. Never exercised quite like that though, you make me want to be a better man.


It's fine that you disagree, but to be honest your opinion is not nearly as valid as mine. Firstly, I spent way more time using the system than you did, MUCH more time, and secondly design is my profession. I know the difference between what is personal taste and just outright good or bad design. Some things, even things people like, are just factually bad implementations, this was one of them.
Lol there are plenty of people who say EQ was a factually bad implementation but we loved it anyway. There were even people who said Elvis was bad and ruining young peoples minds. People say all kinds of shit.

Listen very carefully, no matter how good the MTG system was in your head, or how much marketing spun it up, the systemwas bad. I've said it multiple times, and your refusal to just accept that it was bad and move on is bizarre.
Uhh... i am not regularly updated on the words of denaut... I have never seen you reference it before. Are you someone I should be paying closer attention to or something? I never even read any of your posts until a few days ago and even then I thought you were called dohnut.

I am not sure why that is the case, but you are just spouting the early marketing spin that we also heard internally (and laughed at) in order to attempt to counter reality.

We cut the explicit chains/counters for the most part and everyone got a better combat system/class design for it. In fact, the class system is one of the things Vanguard is most hailed for, which would have never existed had we not fixed the unfun, non-functioning explicit chain/counter system.
So negative. I'm sure they could have made it work and be fun if they had longer.

Also I don't get why Vanguard's classes are praised so much, I think they are pretty poor. They dont work that much differently to EQ apart from the finishers/counterspells and stuff which are a pretty boring and insignificant gimmick. They also made life way too easy on the players imo. Anyonw who has played MTG and MMO's must have had the idea to put them together. SGO's first attempt might not have been that great but I still think it's an idea that should be followed.


The quest system is a non sequitur in regard to combat. I've mentioned before why they were added, but if you want to talk about it we can do so in another line of questioning. You seem to assume that developers have the same access to information that the players do (i.e. Forum Posts), but we have access to MUCH more than that. Forums inform trends we see in the data mined from actual player behavior, but it is that real behavior that drives decision making.
Wait, are you so up your own ass that you think I should actually know who you are? The fact that you once imparted some words unto the world doesn't mean we all know everything you said. I never even knew your posts until a few days ago, and I don't care what jumped up knowitalls like you say anyway. You can "mine all the data" you want, it wont do you any good if you are too stupid to understand it. I'm the one who plays the games, I already know what I like and what I don't like, I don't need data mining and brain wave analysis. Even back in the dark ages of 2005 you could have asked me if 1000+ boring bear ass and fedex quests was a good idea and I still would have known the right answer.

Maybe that's why Brad will do better this time. He wont have big downers like you ruining his buzz.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
Denault was a VG dev if you haven't figured that out.

I thought the orignal combat system was already scrapped before you started tho Denault? The early alpha into regular beta stuff was changed irc? By the time it was sold to SoE it was already drastically changed? Alpha was so bad I can't really see how anyone could get a real feel for something like combat mechanics back then. It was unplayable. So I can see what Denault is getting at. In theory it sounded great but early feedback wasn't good.
 

Fish1_sl

shitlord
188
0
Not hard to believe it might have sucked balls. But to me, so do most of the alternatives we get nowadays, so I would be all for someone coming up with a whole new style of combat.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,768
617
Not hard to believe it might have sucked balls. But to me, so do most of the alternatives we get nowadays, so I would be all for someone coming up with a whole new style of combat.
I agree. That's why I was wondering if Brad has put any lore thought into the combat idea and tried to evolve so it does actually pan out in game.
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,581
12,534
Did someone really pull the EQ1 players were less fat than WoW players card? Seriously?
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
I dunno, I hope it is a literal copy / paste of EQ with moar grafixs, long boring 10 minute downtime in between mobs, so the game can launch with 20 servers, be consolidated down to 1 after two months, then blame it's failure on something other than horrible design.
 

Denaut

Trump's Staff
2,739
1,279
There are quite a few things to address and some of the topics were a little mixed together. The explanations are also rather long-winded so I am going to try and break it up into topical sections rather than direct conversational replies.

DATA MINING
Using the words "real behavior" was probably a mistake, I should have just used the word behavior. Data mining is ridiculously useful for many reasons, but for the sake of brevity it does 2 very important things. One is that it is a census rather than a survey, that is to say it gives you data about every member of the population rather than just a piece of it. Secondly, the information you get is "close to the metal" and therefore generally free of interpretation and selection bias at the point of collection.

I never said community, player interaction, and many other kinds of feedback weren't important. They are very important, but so is data mining. Developers have access to more information because we not only have the same access to publicly available information (forums, websites) but we also have access to other kinds such as the aforementioned data mining, company conducted information gathering, developer feedback, any private communication the public is not privy to, and other avenues.

All that together gives a much more complete picture the state of a game. Even when you compile all of the information the way forward still isn't clear cut, there are various interpretations of it. But it is important to remember that the more information you have the more likely you are to make the correct one.

Data mining is useful for all games, no matter how big or small, no matter their intended goal. The goal is irrelevant to the information you can gather, because the information you gather informs you about how close or far you are from your goal.

The first Vanguard Beta were an epic disaster. People simply didn't play. Mere days after a huge invite I usually couldn't find a full group of players to test my content. The sheer apathy surrounding it was astounding, it wasn't so much that people didn't like it but that most people cared so little about the game they didn't even bother reporting that they didn't like it, they just stopped playing never to return. I of course don't remember the exact numbers, but it was shocking how little time people played, how little they did, and how infrequently they came back... all this is information you get from data mining and it is indicative of a serious problem you might not (although in this specific case you did) learn from just accessing publicly available information.

GOAL SETTING
The important thing to remember about goals is that they are not mechanics or implementations. Goals are more abstract, they deal with feeling and types of decision making not on what is used to achieve these goals. It is a mistake to confuse an implementation with a goal, which is something I see all the damn time not only here but even in professional situations. It is alright though, discussing implementations is generally more involved and more fun than discussing goals, but when analyzing another game it is important to keep the difference in mind.

Here is what I mean using the Vanguard chain/counter system we are discussing as an example. The goal is to create combat that primarily engages the "executive" style decision making found in the pre-frontal cortex rather than say the type of "reactionary" decision making used in shooters that primarily involves the Occipital lobe and motor cortex. This isn't to say that nearly all games don't use both, but I am referring to general concentration for the sake of simplicity.

There can be many, probably an infinite number, of specific implementations that would fulfill this goal. Further constraints such as cost, technical feasibility, UI, etc all narrow the choices down significantly but it is important to note that there are multiple implementations. It is also important to remember that some implementations may not achieve what they set out to.

This is one such case. The game, explicitly, told you what you should do next removing all "executive" decision making completely which is a total failure. Now, given enough time, money, and technical adjustment it was certainly possible to make something that had chains/counters and executive decision making. It was chosen instead to move to an implicit "combo" system rather than an explicit one because that reintroduced at least some decision-making while also being feasible within the constraints we had. Was it the absolute optimal solution? Unlikely. Was it a massive improvement over what we had? Absolutely.

This is the reason developers should discuss goals instead of implementations until they are sufficiently tested to reasonably assume they are final. It is also why developers can be "evasive" when giving answers. They don't want to end up in a situation where they have a real-world implementation compared against everyone's vague, imagined personal version of it because actual implementations rarely measure up. However, keep in mind the people handling the public face are the game are rarely, if ever, realistic professional designers.

ON NICHES
I love niche games. I support them and I think developers should make games for themselves and an audience that it appeals to. But there is something everyone has to keep in mind when talking about a "niche" game, and that is it needs to at least have a reasonable chance of paying for itself. If a "niche" is very small but the game that serves that niche would be very expensive to make then no games will get made for that niche. I tell you this for your own benefit, so that you can manage your expectations.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are ways out of that paradox. Technological improvements, design refinements, and so on... but the game you get would probably fulfill the niche in goal not in implementation, which is why it is so important to recognize the differences.

Great success usually happens when a game is budgeted for a niche, but is so compelling that it expands well beyond those confines. This is what happened with WoW when it was released, it served the EQ niche but for whatever reasons blew the doors wide open. It in essence became its own "genre" that no one could compete with no matter how much money they spent.
 

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
The first Vanguard Beta were an epic disaster. People simply didn't play. Mere days after a huge invite I usually couldn't find a full group of players to test my content. The sheer apathy surrounding it was astounding, it wasn't so much that people didn't like it but that most people cared so little about the game they didn't even bother reporting that they didn't like it, they just stopped playing never to return. I of course don't remember the exact numbers, but it was shocking how little time people played, how little they did, and how infrequently they came back... all this is information you get from data mining and it is indicative of a serious problem you might not (although in this specific case you did) learn from just accessing publicly available information.
Now that you mention it, I partecipated in VG beta, with a decent PC too and I was so damn frustrated by it, I almost punched my monitor.
I tried so hard to make it work, because I wanted so much to play it, but it was... terrible, clunky, hitching, crashing, slow, buggy and so on.
At some point I gave a long ass feedback and gave up. Then I went back to WoW: bye bye Vanguard.
So yeah, I see how frustrating it could have been for those who made it if a true early fanboy couldn't find the will to login.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
The first Vanguard Beta were an epic disaster. People simply didn't play. Mere days after a huge invite I usually couldn't find a full group of players to test my content. The sheer apathy surrounding it was astounding, it wasn't so much that people didn't like it but that most people cared so little about the game they didn't even bother reporting that they didn't like it, they just stopped playing never to return. I of course don't remember the exact numbers, but it was shocking how little time people played, how little they did, and how infrequently they came back... all this is information you get from data mining and it is indicative of a serious problem you might not (although in this specific case you did) learn from just accessing publicly available information..
I'd argue focus groups, data mining, and non gamer project managers have done more to destroy the MMO genre then even Brad Mcquaid, and that's saying a lot.

You need mining when you are aiming to reduce churn for a widespread product, not for a game that should be created with a vision from a benevolent dictator who knows the game 'he' wants to play,

Anyways, not a good comparison as anyone who played Vanguard's beta knows exactly why it was a train wreck, and one didn't need a database with any mined information to be parsed to figure out anything.
 

Laura

Lord Nagafen Raider
582
109
I dunno, I hope it is a literal copy / paste of EQ with moar grafixs, long boring 10 minute downtime in between mobs, so the game can launch with 20 servers, be consolidated down to 1 after two months, then blame it's failure on something other than horrible design.
Or make the game like every other MMORPG that's been released the last 8 years where your scenario suggested above will never happen..... wait, what?
You know what's even worse? it's when they try and add a new "gimmick" to sell the game.


No one asked for a 10 minutes down-time.
We asked for an experience like EverQuest. The safest bet you would go with is doing something that was already tried and wanted by many.
Another EverQuest; but refined and expanded upon.

Don't get me wrong; you will not like it.
You will NOT like it. This product is NOT designed for YOU.
This product, and only this product, is not for you. Not this time. Nope, this is really really not something you should look for.

Is this fair? I think it is.
Do you see me talking shit on an FPS thread complaining how stupid an FPS game is? No.
Do you know why?
Because I know I don't like FPS games...
 

Merlin_sl

shitlord
2,329
1
What the hells wrong with downtime anyway? If it wasn't for downtime, the original EQ wouldn't have had half the clerics they did because most were housewives, with children, and laundry, and cooking, and responsibilities outside the game. The only way they could play is WITH some downtime to take care of their children and house.
Shit, I'm in the same spot now. I'm a full time student raising a houseful of kids and I do all the cooking. If its a nonstop barrage of mobs and flying through dungeons at breakneck speed I simply cannot play. I got shit outside the game to do as well. Downtime is part of the success of EQ. Smokers could smoke, women could feed their kids and fold laundry, etc...you weren't tied to your fucking keyboard every second of every hour.
 

Bruman

Golden Squire
1,154
0
Or make the game like every other MMORPG that's been released the last 8 years where your scenario suggested above will never happen..... wait, what?
You know what's even worse? it's when they try and add a new "gimmick" to sell the game.

No one asked for a 10 minutes down-time.
We asked for an experience like EverQuest. The safest bet you would go with is doing something that was already tried and wanted by many.
Another EverQuest; but refined and expanded upon.

Don't get me wrong; you will not like it.
You will NOT like it. This product is NOT designed for YOU.
This product, and only this product, is not for you. Not this time. Nope, this is really really not something you should look for.

Is this fair? I think it is.
Do you see me talking shit on an FPS thread complaining how stupid an FPS game is? No.
Do you know why?
Because I know I don't like FPS games...
Hah! Who said the only two options are "copy vanilla EQ" and "copy WoW"? Because I didn't. If I had, then yes, you'd have a good counter-point.

And someone did ask for long downtime. Maybe not explicitly 10 minutes, but it was conveyed. Multiple people did with their top list things.

And I've played a ton of EQ, and even raided in P99. I'd say saying EQ is "not for me" is a stretch. I just want to see Brad's game get success, even on a niche level, and I was merely picking at the people who explicitly said they wanted long downtime with a dependency on others to reduce it (aka, mana and health regen being slow, even out of combat).
 

shabushabu

Molten Core Raider
1,408
185
I agree 100%. The best part of playing a rogue on EQ in classic was you didn't have a bunch of buttons to press, you had one button that really set you apart from other melees, and that one button was all you really needed.
In modern MMOs, to make a rogue class, you'd have to have 24 skills according to most developers.

Hell with that.

1 passive and maybe 3-5 active skills at max.
-Pickpocket (for economy boosting, maybe exp bonus for kill after successful pickpocket?)
-Hide/Sneak (positional reduction on hide, sneak as a stealth)
-Backstab
-Stun Attack (3s, 60s cooldown).
-Passive, I would do something like evasive discipline (dodge attacks more often). Have everything else through gear.
D&D didn't have 3 hotbars worth of talents, it had rulebooks. Those rulebooks make the gameplay what it is, and those rules were 'passive' in current MMO terms.
EQ wasn't an active or skill based game. It had a lot of planning before you made your attempts to kill. It resembled D&D in a lot of ways, as you'd maybe reconsider doing an action because of how it could affect your character in some way.
Modern MMOs are almost becoming like modern FPS games. They are twitchy, they make you think on reaction instead of knowledge, and most older D&D players do not have the time for something like that. That's why EQ was such a big hit. It was like graphical D&D done right.

On topic again..
I still think EQ1 needs channeled spells, but only for casters, though (in custom classic-era mechanics).
Something like a reverse casting bar would be a cool mechanic if left to only casters. Tie it in to something like evocation skill for determining interrupts... that'd be unique without breaking the mold of what made EQ great.
You know I see many people talking about "less abilities" and with melee characters or ranger types i would say that makes sense... but casters ? D&D Arcanes and D&D Devines have a crapton of spells and nearly ALL of the skills are situational ( shape, dmg type, buffs ) ... I think my wizard rolls with about 10-12 buffs going...
 

Khane

Got something right about marriage
20,343
14,006
I want a game where you have to spend so much time in the game world to achieve anything of substance that all your personal relationships fumble and faulter, you start to only identify with the people you play with, and marriages crumble as people fly halfway around the world to "meet" their in game friends. I want the old EQ drama back. I don't want to play the game. But I want to hear about all the heartache and disdain it creates. I'm such a bastard.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,976
17,007
Don't get me wrong; you will not like it.
You will NOT like it. This product is NOT designed for YOU.
This product, and only this product, is not for you. Not this time. Nope, this is really really not something you should look for.
Have you ever considered a career in marketing? The genre needs you!
 

Valderen

Space Pirate
<Bronze Donator>
4,546
2,772
The first Vanguard Beta were an epic disaster. People simply didn't play. Mere days after a huge invite I usually couldn't find a full group of players to test my content. The sheer apathy surrounding it was astounding, it wasn't so much that people didn't like it but that most people cared so little about the game they didn't even bother reporting that they didn't like it, they just stopped playing never to return. I of course don't remember the exact numbers, but it was shocking how little time people played, how little they did, and how infrequently they came back... all this is information you get from data mining and it is indicative of a serious problem you might not (although in this specific case you did) learn from just accessing publicly available information.
It wasn't just apathy, I believe that Sigil did an horrible job of managing it's beta community. Providing any feedback that was viewed as negative by the "Fanboys" led to threads becoming nothing but fanboys insulting people and telling them to go play something else. Even fucking bugs were almost considered "working as intended" by the fanboys.

Was there apathy, yes there was but there was in my opinion a huge part of people not providing feedback because it led to them being insulted and the feeling that their feedback was drowned...and with ZERO support from Sigil saying that all feedback was welcome, and some maybe banning for inappropriate behavior.

I think they were afraid of losing the little support they had by doing anything against their rabid fanboys or in support of people who disagreed with the fanboys.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
What the hells wrong with downtime anyway? If it wasn't for downtime, the original EQ wouldn't have had half the clerics they did because most were housewives, with children, and laundry, and cooking, and responsibilities outside the game. The only way they could play is WITH some downtime to take care of their children and house.
Shit, I'm in the same spot now. I'm a full time student raising a houseful of kids and I do all the cooking. If its a nonstop barrage of mobs and flying through dungeons at breakneck speed I simply cannot play. I got shit outside the game to do as well. Downtime is part of the success of EQ. Smokers could smoke, women could feed their kids and fold laundry, etc...you weren't tied to your fucking keyboard every second of every hour.
Downtime is not really that good a thing. It worked in EQ because things took so goddamn long you had to have it to survive. It also created a sense of economy and valued things that took time.

The bigger question is how does one create a design that pushes a lot of immersion, has valid sinks, creates an economy. and yet is casual friendly? Is downtime with a spawn that takes six hours with 60 minutes actually played superior to doing the same thing in 60 minutes with a 24 hour timer afterwards? More importantly, who decides this and why? I think Denaut was put in a nasty situation with Vanguard, but he actually IS a gamer and a pretty smart guy. My issues come more from the executive level nowadays and the baffling MMO products we've seen over the last few years.

EQ worked because the design was good for a small server at the start of the MMO genre. How about some new and hotness, preferably designed from a visionary and not a focus group? I'm just frustrated with the AAA MMOs designed without a fucking clue by people who enjoyed gaming 20+ years ago, instead of people who should be leading this projects today.