Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Gecko_sl said:

Then throw in a small amount of dynamic content and open world change and voila you have a great niche MMO.

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What I'm hearing is that McEverQuaid (my new fan fiction name for this unnamed MMO) needs to have Burned Woods.

I think it's time someone said it. Tmak and popsicle and whoever else turned on me in the last pages, you can all go fuck yourselves. You are WoW kiddies who like shitty gameplay and I'm not letting you have your shitty opinions unquestioned on this game. The whole reason the industry sucks is because it caters to people like you who want no downtime and fast combat and brainless gameplay. I want something more like EQ, not vanguard. It was different, and I think it was better, and I can at least attempt to justify why that was. Troll me all you want but you are achieving nothing. You are just in the wrong thread. Go to the Wildstar thread or something, that's your game. This game is not for you, and no matter how much you kick and scream, it never will be.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Son, you've gone full retard. You can't denounce Vanguard in one breath as a WoW clone, while unabashedly praising EQ design, and then turn around and try to again reject Vanguard but this time under the premise it didn't do much different from EQ. By your logic EQ was just a shitty WoW clone.

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You are the fucking retard trying to make up some logical fallacy to prove your shitty non-point. I never said any of the stuff you said, I am careful to use specific words - and the words matter. I have explained this exact thing to you in the past and you still just don't get this very basic principle: I am comparing the classes - not the combat. They are two very different things. Vanguard and EQ could haveidenticalclasses, and EQ could still have better combat because all the numbers are different.... the downtime, the hp, the dps, and everything else.

popsicledeath_sl said:

We get it. You let Vanguard touch you in no-no spots and now feel dirty.

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No you don't get it.... you are trying to troll me but you don't even have an angle. All I'm saying is that I think Vanguard's classes get more praise than they deserve. I think a few of them were pretty cool like the BM, but they were otherwise boring and not much different to how they worked in EQ ages ago. I've heard all the Vanguard fanboys before, and all the haters, it's been going on for 6 years and getting weaker as time goes on and people stop caring. I know how this discussion goes before you even open your stupid mouth.

popsicledeath_sl said:

But seriously, you're going to rail against Vanguard's classed and combat? You done lost yo' mind.

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Nope, I'm the one who actually plays Vanguard and sees the results. And I've described it before, groups of 6 people doing dungeons which I've done with just 2 people. Unlimited health and mana, morons spamming spells and making mistakes but none of them matter. No wipes or even deaths because the whole group is just a moving clusterfuck. Stomping from room to room, pressing their 3 button routine and destroying everything that moves.

popsicledeath_sl said:

There's a pretty big difference between intelligently discussing game design and just blathering on like a fucking moron spewing buzz words and cliches like WoW clone. Think smarter, not retarder.

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Again, you are the one trying to turn this in to an argument because that's just what you do. You did it on FOH and now you are trying to do it here. Just because I think Vanguard sucks doesn't mean I'm a retard. I just have a different opinion to you. You can debate it or you can insult me. You just always go for the latter because that's all you are capable of.

Maybe it was just nostalgia but the VG sorc was no where near as fun as my EQ wizard. I could only get the Sorc to 20 on VG.. Did they do anything special later on besides nuke? I'm guessing just snare kite? I don't know but I beat the quading drum all the time around here.. How turning in a circle for hours on end was fun is beyond me but it was and needs to come back...

No, they are shit even at 50+, that's my point. There are just some people who cling on to the belief that it was the one good thing Vanguard did. They really did a good job with all the healers. I would say that they are all a step up from EQ, but the rest... not so much.

Fish1_sl said:

No, they are shit even at 50+, that's my point. There are just some people who cling on to the belief that it was the one good thing Vanguard did.

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I think overall they see the system as better b/c there were more options for groups but most people tend to point only to a few classes.. BM/Disc most of the time. Certainly there are things Brad can take from both and add his own ideas.

I said it earlier but I think a slow and steady pace is reasonable.. I could do that with my Wiz..singles of course.. If I decided to quad I had to med a bit more. If i wanted to fight a mob or mobs that were higher in level, I would have to med more.. Same goes for groups..That's the overall feel I got from EQ. the more the risk the more potential for downtime.

The BM is just like any EQ class but with an extra little layer or elaboration on top of it. Just take an EQ class you like, but then add an extra special buff which drains some of your blood and you store it in vials, and then you can use that blood to charm mobs or whatever. A little selection of extra special spells that aren't just about mana, but use your blood or use body parts you harvest from mob corpses. So you are just a healer but on occasion you can charm a mob or whatever. It's cool, but it's also just one class....

The Disciple is not that special, it just gets spoken about a lot because it was totally overpowered, even when the game actually had some challenge to it. You basically just engage with your 123 and it starts building up combo points, and then every 5 seconds or whatever, you can convert those in to a big heal on your defensive target. And if you are solo, that means you get to kick mobs asses and the big heal keeps going to just you. So you are unstoppable. Again, it's kinda cool but it's OP and... it's just one class.

The remaining dozen or so classes work more or less how they did in EQ. The sorc and the wiz in particular are very similar. The difference is that in EQ, you can actually die. You can actually snag aggro and that can kill you, or you can run out of mana and then end up in trouble. You don't get that in Vanguard because aggro is nothing, all mobs die in 5 seconds, so even if you do manage to steal aggro, tank just hits his "force mob to attack you for 4 seconds" button and then it's dead before it even gets a chance to hit anyone else. In other words, it's basically the same class, but the framework in which it works in EQ makes things more exciting and tense. In Vanguard it's 1234 while Zzz. And again, that was the release version of Vanguard which is totally different to the playschool version that exists today.

Fish1_sl said:

No, they are shit even at 50+, that's my point. There are just some people who cling on to the belief that it was the one good thing Vanguard did. They really did a good job with all the healers. I would say that they are all a step up from EQ, but the rest... not so much.

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Psionist ? Bard ? They were fantastic... In VG I have Bloodmage, bard, psionist, disc, ranger, shaman, DK, druid, Necro. Druid and necro are probably the only ones that are kinda bleh for me, the rest awesome sauce. I just wonder how many people actually leveled all these classes to at least 30 or so...

I have all of them at 50 or near. Psion is not even in the same league as an EQ chanter. Druid is a total let down because they get 1 CC spell which is useless and never used, and they aren't needed to root or do anything else to help out because it's just not even needed. So they stand at the back spamming their few spells in a group and waiting to whack a mole with a heal spell if it ever pops up - WoW druid was a million times better. Necro is just a carbon copy of EQ only with pet grafts instead of pet weapons. Bard is boring as shit to play compared to the EQ bard. Constructing a song is not about freedom, it's about doing the exact cookie cutter 6 button build that everyone else does. And then once its made, you just click it and forget about it. EQ bard had to twist their songs while also swapping around instruments and meleeing. Shaman, maybe if you had to tapdance with the stances it could be a bit more interesting. But once you set up your entire hotbar full of macros, it's dull to play too.

I don't know maybe I'm like one of those old timers who gets all hard talking about a '58 Mustang or something. But I just think even although the EQ classes mostly had fewer things to click, they still somehow turned out being more fun to play.

Fish1_sl said:

I have all of them at 50 or near. Psion is not even in the same league as an EQ chanter. Druid is a total let down because they get 1 CC spell which is useless and never used, and they aren't needed to root or do anything else to help out because it's just not even needed. So they stand at the back spamming their few spells in a group and waiting to whack a mole with a heal spell if it ever pops up - WoW druid was a million times better. Necro is just a carbon copy of EQ only with pet grafts instead of pet weapons. Bard is boring as shit to play compared to the EQ bard. Constructing a song is not about freedom, it's about doing the exact cookie cutter 6 button build that everyone else does. And then once its made, you just click it and forget about it. EQ bard had to twist their songs while also swapping around instruments and meleeing. Shaman, maybe if you had to tapdance with the stances it could be a bit more interesting. But once you set up your entire hotbar full of macros, it's dull to play too.

I don't know maybe I'm like one of those old timers who gets all hard talking about a '58 Mustang or something. But I just think even although the EQ classes mostly had fewer things to click, they still somehow turned out being more fun to play.

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Nah I get it ... main thing i really liked about the classes was the progression of each class and how they developed over time... also the mixed roles of healer/dps ( bmg, sham) or healer/tank ( disc, Cleric, sham ).. Bloodmage and psionist and bard were the top 3 development wise and game-play wise for me though for sure.

Funny that you say WoW Druid was better.. I actually liked Eq2 druids better than both vanguard and WoW.

I never played EQ2 beyond the trial. Now you make want to play it! The Vanguard healers were pretty cool and a lot better than EQ because I hated healers in EQ. All that pressure to do nothing but whack moles. The Vanguard healers are not only more fun to play but the variety amongst them was amazing too. Like the Shaman could be split 3 ways depending on patrons, and then the Disc could be played as an ok dps, and bm as a crowd control type. I liked the healers.

But a spell caster is usually what I go for and I way preferred those in EQ. I did have some fun with the Druid class but only before release. Once they released it and nerfed a few things, I got instantly bored. For tanks I'd say it's a similar story to the healers as well. I liked them and generally it was better than tanking in EQ. But still, I wanted more and I don't want to defend Vanguard anymore. I used to, but it was far from being what I wanted in 2006 and nowadays I have to just call it like it is. An unfinished half baked has-been. Yeah it makes me seem cruel but if Brad is reading this stuff and contemplating the future, I gotta say what I think. Vanguard had some great ideas, but a lot of terrible implementation. And even if MS didn't bail and they had millions more to finish it off just how they wanted it, it still wouldn't have been a favourite for me. Just the very fact alone that they had quest grinding kills it for me. And I can't play any other game that works the same way. I tried Tera, yeah the combat is cool but ask me to collect 10 more bear asses, I dare you mother fucker. I could handle it with something like SWTOR or The Secret World where it has really good story lines and higher-than-usual quality quests. But that's not sustainable imo.

ups double

f u faggot

damn! shit is getting primal up in here! see, this is exactly why you need to have contested content in a MMO!

Let's try to be more constructive here and enough with all this retarded ad hominem and unnecessary personal crap.


It's very clear we can group people in this thread into two groups; One which doesn't want a game like EverQuest and one that does.

Can we all agree with this?

We know everyone has their own preferences regarding game mechanics and design approach but what I don't understand is some people's need to crap all-over you for no good reason. If you don't like games like EverQuest then why are you interested in a small-budget project like this? This just baffles me.

Developers have tried everything.
They made games with zero down-time left and right.
They even changed the business model mid-way trying to save their shallow game-play.

We, in the other hand, believe there's a list of game mechanics which can be used that will make some of us here happy. Very simple concept; let's try it this time it might work.

Fish1_sl said:

I think it's time someone said it. Tmak and popsicle and whoever else turned on me in the last pages, you can all go fuck yourselves. You are WoW kiddies who like shitty gameplay and I'm not letting you have your shitty opinions unquestioned on this game. The whole reason the industry sucks is because it caters to people like you who want no downtime and fast combat and brainless gameplay. I want something more like EQ, not vanguard. It was different, and I think it was better, and I can at least attempt to justify why that was. Troll me all you want but you are achieving nothing. You are just in the wrong thread. Go to the Wildstar thread or something, that's your game. This game is not for you, and no matter how much you kick and scream, it never will be.

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Even when calling you out, I've been calling you out on your inability to post anything more than ignorant shit like 'WoW clone' and 'WoW kiddies' as if being a generalizing, hyperbolic douche makes it seem like you have a clue and are half intelligent. Fuck, even your personal attacks are vague, generalizing bullshit.

This game isn't for me? This game doesn't yet exist! Yet you're already a fantool acting like a fucking rape victim with a bloody vag when in reality everyone is asking you to put your panties back on and stop blubbering like some attention whoring drunk bitch.

you are trying to troll me but you don't even have an angle.

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I'm trying to troll you? You just told me a game that isn't even in production and hasn't even pitched for fucking kickstarter isn't the game for me!

Whose trolling whom, muthafucka?

And that is my angle. That you're a desperate fucking weirdo already kneeling to suck a cock that doesn't yet exist. Close ya mouth, bitch, and don't confuse being on your knees with standing up for yourself.

I've heard all the Vanguard fanboys before, and all the haters, it's been going on for 6 years and getting weaker as time goes on and people stop caring. I know how this discussion goes before you even open your stupid mouth.

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No, you don't know how it goes... because in your infantile mind the world is apparently divided between fanboys and haters and can only exist in extremes. At some point they're going to have more than the hopes and dreams of desperate little nerds and actual discussions will have to take place, and I'm afraid you're ill prepared for it.

Again, you are the one trying to turn this in to an argument because that's just what you do. You did it on FOH and now you are trying to do it here.

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The fact you apparently remember me personally, when I have no clue who the fuck you are but some idiot who can't seem to formulate a coherent thought, is interesting.

Just because I think Vanguard sucks doesn't mean I'm a retard. I just have a different opinion to you. You can debate it or you can insult me. You just always go for the latter because that's all you are capable of.

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I respect different opinions every day. I can't respect morons who think having a different opinion is some sort of badge of protection against having to formulate a coherent thought. Having an opinion doesn't prove you've thought of anything worthwhile to say. And I'd never aim to take away your right to have your precious opinions, so why you gonna start acting like I shouldn't have to right to call them baseless and ignorant?

Not to mention, you're the fucking idiot who apparently thinks "Vanguard sucks" yet you still play it. You'd think at some point some synapses would fire and give you a more nuanced perspective than 'the thing I'm doing with my time completely sucks' though, in your defense, it's not like you'd just stop existing, either, so why stop playing a game that sucks?

I'm trying to come up with one last outlandish way to insult you, because really I'm mostly just fucking around, but seriously, I'm afraid you're such a self-victimizing degenerate that I'm only feeding into your severe psychosis. If you have any actual thoughts of hurting yourself (aside from continuing to play Vanguard when you apparently hate it) let me know and I'll stop. Srsly, brah.

Fish1_sl said:

The BM is just like any EQ class but with an extra little layer or elaboration on top of it. Just take an EQ class you like, but then add an extra special buff which drains some of your blood and you store it in vials, and then you can use that blood to charm mobs or whatever. A little selection of extra special spells that aren't just about mana, but use your blood or use body parts you harvest from mob corpses. So you are just a healer but on occasion you can charm a mob or whatever. It's cool, but it's also just one class....

The Disciple is not that special... You basically just engage with your 123 and it starts building up combo points, and then every 5 seconds or whatever, you can convert those in to a big heal on your defensive target.

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Confirmed shit player.

Laura_sl said:

It's very clear we can group people in this thread into two groups; One which doesn't want a game like EverQuest and one that does.

Can we all agree with this?

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No. That's the point. The two types of people in this thread are those who can't seem to process a world that isn't opposite extremes, and the rest of us who aren't so dense as to think anything is that simple.

Example: trying to qualify something as 'like Everquest' is nearly impossible unless you're trying to say EQ never changed at all from launch until now.

You aren't even worth arguing with, you got nothing, you just sound like a stupid kid who gets angry when someone says WoW clone or whatever your trigger word is. Sadly those terms exist for a reason, your inability to handle them is something you're going to have to deal with yourself.