Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
I'm not a thin skinned individual. I'm going to continue to report the news including positive and negative steps. If you feel like shitting on the positive and slurping up the negative, fine just don't direct your rage and blind hatred at me.

I will continue to trash them for their down falls but I will also defend them if they ever do something right.
 

Kirun

Buzzfeed Editor
19,235
15,625
That seems like an overly simply statement. Is it your contention that there all games that are made have a market and all games that aren't made don't have a market?
I think it's ridiculous to say, "X-Com didn't have a market, but its success obviously proved otherwise"! Well, duh? That's why it was made? There was enough obvious interest to justify green-lighting the project. All games made have enough of a market interest to justify their cost, yes. All games not made, don't have enough market interest to justify the cost of making them, yes.
 

Oloh_sl

shitlord
298
0
Exactly, it was about how brad was the mastermind of exactly nothing beyond "make it 3d" when it came to EQ.
Even if true, when EQ came out, the entire video game industry was struggling with how to convert tried and true classics across the genres to use 3D. The Nintendo 64 is widely regarded as one of the best console systems of all time because of its contributions in this front. Miyamoto catapuled from legendary to probably the best video gamer in the history by his conversions of the Super Mario series, Zelda series and Metroid series from 2D to 3D.

To say "yeah, but he just ported it to 3D" shows complete and utter ignorance of what was going on at the time. The 3D tools used to created EverQuest were not object oriented like today's three 3 tools and didn't even have copy and paste functionality. Even if you want to believe that Brad's sole contribution to EverQuest was porting a text based MUD to 3D, that is an amazing accomplishment in its own right.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
Am I being thin skinned by thinking this might be directed at me!? I assure you, it's not that... I've been called it all on here from backing Brad lol.
Not directed at you. More directed at the posters who think they can bully opinion. When an opinion that's positive Pantheon comes out there are certain posters who will jump on it. I was just trying to say that when positive news does happen, I'll be here reporting it and they can kiss my ass.

To this point there isn't anything positive to report though
smile.png
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,036
All games not made, don't have enough market interest to justify the cost of making them, yes.
Come on, that's silly. You're attempting to prove a negative. Even extensive market research has been proven to befantasticallywrong. TakeNewCoke, for example (And I assure you, their market research was extensive proving people liked the new flavor and it would sell well). This is like econ 101 stuff though, capital constrains proving problematic in producing innovation and exploiting new markets is an actual thing in economics. Capitalism deals with it far better than other economic systems, but it's still a huge problem--and market research is not nearly good enough to abate said problem. The fact is that numerous markets face this problem---it comes down to convincing very rich men whether to hand over money or not, and their decisions are NOT always correct (In either direction)--even if they have extensive market research.

Think about how many stories you've heard of some inventor or artist who went for years looking to get money for his product, only to eventually have one person take a chance and find out there was a MASSIVE market out there---even though research said otherwise. Well guess what? For every one you read about, there is another story of some poor smhuck who invented something great, got rejected because the market "wasn't there"--and then a few years later someone with actual connections got it made anyway and shockingly it had a huge market.

I made my arguments earlier in the thread--but in essence, compared to the AVERAGE KS, the number of backers and the principle amount raised, was extremely large. It failed due to a number of reasons. The one I'd be the LEAST sure about, considering everything, is that the market "isn't there" (Not totally sure, mind you--it could very well NOT be there). The people claiming that they "know for sure" (Not you, others in the thread) that the market isn't there based on this extremely limited amount of data, which even given it's limited nature runs contradictory to their claim? Should go and apply at any number of firms that are dying for omniscient talent that is clearly superior to all the tools currently used to create market reports.
 

Torrid

Molten Core Raider
926
611
I think it's ridiculous to say, "X-Com didn't have a market, but its success obviously proved otherwise"! Well, duh? That's why it was made? There was enough obvious interest to justify green-lighting the project. All games made have enough of a market interest to justify their cost, yes. All games not made, don't have enough market interest to justify the cost of making them, yes.
No, they do not have a crystal ball to tell them how well their titles are going to do. Games and movies bomb and lose money all the time. Greenlighting the XCOM remake was seen as a gamble to the people who fund these things, even though it's obvious to serious old school gamers that XCOM would sell. The proof is the complete lack of strategy games made in the last decade, not to mention the other XCOM title that they turned into an FPS. (did that even launch?)

Several genres are very underserved and have not seen many titles since the '90s, because 'conventional wisdom' says they won't sell. XCOM proved them wrong in at least one case. Proclaiming that an EQ successor won't be profitable is dogma.
 

Skanda

I'm Amod too!
6,662
4,506
Even if true, when EQ came out, the entire video game industry was struggling with how to convert tried and true classics across the genres to use 3D. The Nintendo 64 is widely regarded as one of the best console systems of all time because of its contributions in this front. Miyamoto catapuled from legendary to probably the best video gamer in the history by his conversions of the Super Mario series, Zelda series and Metroid series from 2D to 3D.

To say "yeah, but he just ported it to 3D" shows complete and utter ignorance of what was going on at the time. The 3D tools used to created EverQuest were not object oriented like today's three 3 tools and didn't even have copy and paste functionality. Even if you want to believe that Brad's sole contribution to EverQuest was porting a text based MUD to 3D, that is an amazing accomplishment in its own right.
How would any of that make him a genius DESIGNER? You have an argument for being a good programmer there but nothing that helps argue his title of God of MMO Game Design.
 

Gecko_sl

shitlord
1,482
0
After the debacle that was Vanguard, everything surrounding it, inadditionto all the information available about how muchactual work Brad did on EQ? People werestillwilling to throw money at him, evenafterthe Kickstarter had further confirmed all the incompetency rumors. For a group this fanatical, it won't matter. All he has to do is pop in every few weeks, make a vague update about how far along they are, and collect a check. It's essentially the gig he had with Microsoft, but without the oversight.
The problem is how long will that last? Let's say there are 4,000 people who so fondly remember EQ they pony up 300,000 total dollars. Then what? I doubt he'll find a publisher, so he's left hoping an angel investor is out there, unless he self funds which seems highly unlikely. The pace of the past 4 months has not given me faith that any sort of alpha will be playable within a year, and that 300k won't go much farther divvied amoung 10 people, including the backpay through last August he promised.

The other thing that really needs to be addressed but never has is the teams lack of tech people and how they'll actually develop the game and under what schedule. If one uses Garriot's team and Jacob's team as a basis of comparison, those groups have 80% techs and one 'designer' with the techs wearing multiple hats. The Pantheon team seems to be very thin on worker bees.

Anyways, this discussion is pretty much beating a dead horse. I'm glad you keep up with things, Convo, and I'm interested, but I don't realistically see a good ending to this. I hope I'm wrong.
 

Carl_sl

shitlord
634
0
Proclaiming that an EQ successor won't be profitable is dogma.
Prove it? When the supposed hero of EQ steps up to the plate and says I want to take you back, and 3k people say sure while the rest say no thanks, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
 

Frenzic

Lord Nagafen Raider
884
61
The problem is how long will that last? Let's say there are 4,000 people who so fondly remember EQ they pony up 300,000 total dollars. Then what? I doubt he'll find a publisher, so he's left hoping an angel investor is out there, unless he self funds which seems highly unlikely. The pace of the past 4 months has not given me faith that any sort of alpha will be playable within a year, and that 300k won't go much farther divvied amoung 10 people, including the backpay through last August he promised.
I hate that they are doing backpay when they claimed all along that this was pro bono. They lied plain and simple.

This game will not be made unless some sort of publisher comes on board. My guess is that the crowd fund money will go towards the demo to which they will try and sell to a publisher. That is the only reasonable course of action so Im prolly 100% wrong
smile.png
 

Carl_sl

shitlord
634
0
I hate that they are doing backpay when they claimed all along that this was pro bono. They lied plain and simple.

This game will not be made unless some sort of publisher comes on board. My guess is that the crowd fund money will go towards the demo to which they will try and sell to a publisher. That is the only reasonable course of action so Im prolly 100% wrong
smile.png
I could actually believe in the success of a plan like that, except I feel like the publisher would just say "so you're trying to hit us with another VG again? Fuck off."
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,385
277
The point is that wow is not the ideals of eq remade, and the sub base left eq for wow and never looked back.

On the subject of average gamer, what you are saying here has nothing to do with what I said which makes sense since you quoted two words, pulled them out of context and made up your own argument.

On X-com I have no idea what that game is or why we are talking about it but, if there was an xcom kick starter and no one supported I would absolutely say it proves dis-interest.
In my opinion the argument that people left as quickly as they could is as flawed as the 'EQ had 500k subs yay' argument. Yes in 2004 many people jumped ship, after 2-5 years of playing EQ. I dont have many games I'd play that long without leaving. I doubt people would've gone back to an EQ remake in 2005, WoW was still fresh and the big hit among non-gamers. EQ had its peak, was killed driven off by the younger lion and faded away. That's normal, happens to everything eventually.

I still think there would be enough interested 'never heard of EQ' gamers around for a *good* game in the style of pre-2003 MMOs now or in the future. But obviously it needs to be a professional, quality product, not the joke we've been through with this KS.


@Convo I'd like to hear details on big steps forward about this, but I'm really not involved enough to care about day to day "omg new unity screenshot" news. They extinguished my trust in their product during these last weeks.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,767
617
Examining the reasons I left EQ.. I'm not even sure if this was all at once, but the timeline seems close.. I was in beta for OoW, WoW and EQ2. I really didn't like what I was seeing in OoW, EQ2 was fun but WoW just felt new. It became a choice between WoW and EQ2. The decision by SoE to go gold with EQ 2 with the state it was in, made it easy to go to WoW.

SoE helped a lot of us leave EQ.