Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Xaxius_sl said:

Regarding first-person, I thought the original Darkfall did it right. Fixed 1st person perspective combined with a very tightly fixed 3rd person view. Provided on hell of an immersive experience.

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I think that's the only balance that keeps first person relevant.

Make sure the game can support 3 monitor resolutions for people who will go that route. It's not really that expensive to build a system these days that can run a three-monitor system for those that want it, just have to make sure the game isn't building graphics for systems 10 years out.

Make a first-person one-monitor system that is rendered well and uses some camera tricks to expand the fov and the ability to mouselook independently so you can look around some even while fighting.

Make a third person option that is a tightly fixed, close third person, for people who feel jipped if they can't see their character, but limit mouselook to the direction your character is facing.

Then I don't care if they add a cinematic camera for screenshots, but anytime you try to move or look around it goes back to your default view.

And none of this is because I care if people can see behind them. I think it's over rated, as even though Brad said outside you'd be able to see that mob chasing you, surely there are more elegant solutions to this, like an agro list, using sound, combat music, flashing red you're-in-combat indicators, etc. I mostly just want a world built logically that has tight caves and dungeons, perspective FROM your character's eyes and not from a camera in the sky, less need for flashy fireworks displays with every attack and oversized armor that can be ogled from space.

I think there are ways to do it other than just copying WoW's arcade-mode camera and everything that goes along with it.

Tuco_sl said:

That shit happened but it was rare enough that it made the game interesting rather than ruined my leveling experience.Plus the guy doing the PLing would usually get bored enough to make it dangerous and kill himself.

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Lmfao this so hard. When I was powerleveling my druid shit got out of hand so many god damn times. Luckily my pet was a beast and could take over if I needed to bow out for a bit.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Yeah. This is why saddlebags are souldbound. Of course, once armor was soulbound too, it was pointless except to keep clickies and trade-out weapons/focus in your saddlebag.

I swear I remember at launch dying and your gear was on your corpse and you had to fight back naked, but maybe it was beta or just my imagination.

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This was kinda true, i think if it was not bound you had fight back to it, otherwise it was on you when you respawned

popsicledeath_sl said:

Yeah. This is why saddlebags are souldbound. Of course, once armor was soulbound too, it was pointless except to keep clickies and trade-out weapons/focus in your saddlebag.

I swear I remember at launch dying and your gear was on your corpse and you had to fight back naked, but maybe it was beta or just my imagination.

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Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't Brad also plan for basically guild camps where you could repair items, buy consumables, bank, etc. etc. outside of raids because the way he designed for raids to work was you'd be there for weeks at a time.

Really cool idea imo, too bad it never came to fruition.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Dude, you're way smarter than making 'devs are dumb and won't do it right' arguments right after what is basically 'devs just have to do it right' argument:



So, the caveat is how you design the player-gets-caught encounter. If you make a scenario where the player is captured and simply unable to do anything but go afk for 30 minutes, the you ae probably a shitty developer.

So, the idea is bad because developers are selectively bad when you don't like an idea, but can be better when you do like one?

Why not just expect devs to work harder, not retarded, on any potential idea or design that can be cool, and if they feel they can pull it off, even if it's a player-gets-captured scenario you think is dumb, then more power to devs and maybe we get a cool encounter out of it. (of course, something like this would probably require an instance, which is a different argument all together).

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I was just joking with you dude, I took your point as if the person is CC'd for 20 minutes. There are infinite ways to do split group mechanics in a dungeon, and some could be fun.

popsicledeath_sl said:

Which is my argument against:



I don't believe first person is stupid because people simply like seeing their character. That implies there's no other way for developers to solve the issue of 'players like to see their characters' than implementing a wide-spread design decision that changes the entire way the world and combat is designed and has other ramifications.

I played EQ exclusively in first-person while in combat. I was able to see my awesome gear just fine. Just not all the time, which then leads the argument to being people like seeing their character fight? Okay, great, design the game to be first person, and add a cinematic camera. Actually, that would be awesome. If you try to move, though, you're back into first person.

Hell, it can even give the 'look around corners or see behind you' advantage, as I don't really even care about that or think that's game-breaking. What I think is game breaking (for me, at least) is the slew of games designed around third-person that become ridiculous. Spells become a fireworks show seen from space. Every ability ends up having a particle effect. Armor gets bigger and shinier to be seen from a more zoomed-out distance. The indoor world is designed cartoonishly spacious to make room for the third-person camera.

All that, which imo does have pretty significant impact on how the game looks and is played, because devs can't find better ways or use better tools to scratch the itch that players like to see their characters and their awesome gear?

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3rd person is easier then 1st person regarding knowledge of your surroundings. Again I think just because it's easier doesnt make it better, just different. If putting away some ease is such a hurdle for people there will be some rage to come in this thread. The problem with an MMO is that nobody is going to turn down something that makes life easier, we're conditioned that way. That's why I would prefer just 1st person instead both perspectives. Since we already heard it's gonna have 3rd person I hope they stay true to the claim that 1st person is viable (didnt feel viable in WoW, camera too low to the ground and all environments are designed around a wide 3rd person zoom).

popsicledeath_sl said:

Dude, you're way smarter than making 'devs are dumb and won't do it right' arguments right after what is basically 'devs just have to do it right' argument:


So, the caveat is how you design the player-gets-caught encounter. If you make a scenario where the player is captured and simply unable to do anything but go afk for 30 minutes, the you ae probably a shitty developer.

So, the idea is bad because developers are selectively bad when you don't like an idea, but can be better when you do like one?

Why not just expect devs to work harder, not retarded, on any potential idea or design that can be cool, and if they feel they can pull it off, even if it's a player-gets-captured scenario you think is dumb, then more power to devs and maybe we get a cool encounter out of it. (of course, something like this would probably require an instance, which is a different argument all together).

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A simple "captured" scenario that doesnt involve mobs is a pit trap that leads to the floor below. Happened to us in Befallen back when we started EQ. 2 of 5 fell down through the floor, and while we discussed what to do were attacked by a wall-aggro train... the other 3 jumped down for a united last stand because we were noobs. Much fun.

Side note:
If this game has Necromancers, please make a slot system for pets like SojournMUD (best necro class ever to be made). For those that aren't internet old like me, the Necromancer could summon Skeletons, Zombies, Wights, Ghouls and some other shit. As you leveled, your "pet cap number" grew. Level 1, you had 1 point and skeletons cost 1. So by level X you had 9 points and could summon 9 skeletons. Zombies cost two points, so you could summon 2 zombies and 5 skeletons. However, skeletons had a hard cap of stats and became useless by mid level.

TLDR: Pet classes should have more than one pet if the class design allows for it.

Hey man, I don't care if you guys need your first person to feel immersed in the game world. There better be third person available so I can actually see all the sick loot on my toon and watch his animations while he pounds the crap out of everything.

Draegan_sl said:

I was just joking with you dude, I took your point as if the person is CC'd for 20 minutes. There are infinite ways to do split group mechanics in a dungeon, and some could be fun.

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DAMN YOU AND YOUR TRICKERY!!

Wasn't my post, but still. Stuff like that always makes me think it would only work with instances, which confuses me because I want to hate instanced dungeons.

2 things, can we make /ignore account bound and as far as back packs are concerned, can we just do away with needing a bunch and just give us 1 that has unlimited space.

I like being able to twink, and it's responsible for a lot of the replay value I got in EQ. I also liked starting out with next to nothing and earning my stuff. I like that epics looked awesome and were identifiable on sight, and that half the playerbase looked like scrubs up until 40+. So my feedback is: Let us twink, and don't throw tons of glitter items and particle effects at us at level 10. Save that for the badasses. Also, fuck flying mounts.

1 bag is cool. Unlimited space is not.

There are many ways to make instanced dungeons fun which part include 90% of the dungeon being public and open. Did you SWTOR? Did you not notice that there are certain rooms that had some green barrier to them that signified that you were all by yourself in your story mode? That shit was completely seemless and quite clever. People should use that for parts of the dungeon like boss fights or puzzle/trap rooms or whatever.

It's like developers forgot how to be clever or use tools different ways. I've seen some really really clever things done in MMORPGs in the last 5 years, but no game ever used those things to their fullest potential. They just spent all their time making leveling content of quests, and then start working on an expansion of the same thing.

Draegan_sl said:

Side note:
If this game has Necromancers,

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I was going to say probably a stretch goal. But then I thought if there is death penalty you might need them for corpse summoning.

Khane_sl said:

Hey man, I don't care if you guys need your first person to feel immersed in the game world. There better be third person available so I can actually see all the sick loot on my toon and watch his animations while he pounds the crap out of everything.

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Back in my day, we used to admire our character's asses outside of combat, like real men!

Here's a dumb idea: maybe they could make first-person only and third-person only servers.

Draegan_sl said:

Side note:
If this game has Necromancers, please make a slot system for pets like SojournMUD (best necro class ever to be made). For those that aren't internet old like me, the Necromancer could summon Skeletons, Zombies, Wights, Ghouls and some other shit. As you leveled, your "pet cap number" grew. Level 1, you had 1 point and skeletons cost 1. So by level X you had 9 points and could summon 9 skeletons. Zombies cost two points, so you could summon 2 zombies and 5 skeletons. However, skeletons had a hard cap of stats and became useless by mid level.

TLDR: Pet classes should have more than one pet if the class design allows for it.

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I was always envious of Rexxar and his many pets. Thought it would awesome for Hunters in WoW to have multiple pets.

Do bags like WoW(EQ) and have a box to check off for showing all slots in one bag frame?

I loved the bag mini-game, I am hoping for variety of specialty bags with more slots that only hold specific things. I agree it's not normal but in modern MMOs you take what motivation you find.

Xaxius_sl said:

You would have open world contested encounters, I just don't lump those in with "dungeons". You can still have your City of Mist.

I'm lumping "instance" into anything I got to zone into. Once it hits its said player cap, it clones itself. Scale the drama accordingly.

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Ah gotcha , misunderstanding on my part.

shabushabu_sl said:

One thing I think you need to consider ( i.e. on Item degredation and BOP/BOE ) is these things help the crafting economy.... if they are putting real crafting in like existed in vanguard, which was exceptional imo, i would want BOP and BOE in.

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While I get what you are saying , I really loved twinking and equipment being less restricted to use and pass down. I guess I've just lived with so much BoP and BoE for years I'm ready for a return to rubicite armor for my twink warrior. Side game for me was farming with my druid for my alts.

mkopec_sl said:

I agree, especially in a PvE game where none of that shit really matters that much n the broad sense.

But like was mentioned before twinking and items that are not BOE or BOP are obviously more rare because they need to be. I mean you just cannot have a fungi drop every time, right? So this leads to camps, and it leads to no lifers hoarding that camp for hours on end. Gold, plat sellers, chinese armies camping shit 24/7 for rmt...etc. And this has to be addressed somehow. especially in a game that you guys are all touting to be instance free.

Shit, even to this day in EQ you still have shit camped out. And P99 showed how this problem is even multiplied with the lack of content.

So how would you guys solve this? I dont want to log in and sit in a line 4 hours to have a chance at some .01% drop chance item.

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You solve it by creating dungeons and zones that are more dynamic. The named mob that drops The Sword of Awesome could spawn in 5 or 6 different rooms instead of just one or the named mob wanders all over the zone and has 8 different spawn points or there are six mobs in the zone that could drop the item. You can also add roaming mobs that force a group to move every few hours. Like a group of six mobs spawn, walk into the throne room, wait around for twenty minutes then despawn. A group won't be able to handle the extra danger on their own, so they'll have to leave or coordinate with a second group. Either way, the status quo changes.

Draegan_sl said:

There are many ways to make instanced dungeons fun which part include 90% of the dungeon being public and open. Did you SWTOR? Did you not notice that there are certain rooms that had some green barrier to them that signified that you were all by yourself in your story mode? That shit was completely seemless and quite clever. People should use that for parts of the dungeon like boss fights or puzzle/trap rooms or whatever.

It's like developers forgot how to be clever or use tools different ways. I've seen some really really clever things done in MMORPGs in the last 5 years, but no game ever used those things to their fullest potential. They just spent all their time making leveling content of quests, and then start working on an expansion of the same thing.

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Was never much into Star Wars enough to succumb to the bribery of friends I knew that played it. But that's what Vanguard was planning. You'd be fighting a mob you spawned in a public dungeon, and others could watch, but you'd be in your own little bubble, of sorts, the mob unattackable to others, etc. It didn't turn out, or at least just ended up being 'locked' fights for the most part. But Pantheon is all about second chances. And hopefully Brad and Co. will be forced into being more clever than just throwing money into a ton of quest-based content and a new item at every turn.