Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Tolan

Tolan

Member of the Year 2016
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Something that I'd like to see removed from the EQ model is hidden soft caps. For example, the underlying formulas based on AC, agi, etc. to determine any given class's melee mitigation or avoidance were never represented by a stat the showed that class's real, relative defensive abilities. It pissed me off to no end that a monk with 1200AC and a ranger 1200AC would mitigate damage on a different level, but there was no real stat to view for a quantative comparison. Players were left with parsing and reverse-engineering hypothetical formulas. In other words, with soft caps, there was no simple way to tell if one class needed a boost or a nerf when it came to balancing those formulas.
 
tad10

tad10

Elisha Dushku
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arallu_sl said:
Hey, maybe his mea culpa will be in the KS video, heh.
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Along with proof of ancient aliens
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popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Dyvim_sl said:
Seriously the next fucker that claims classes in VG were nicely balanced is now officially challenged to play a warrior up to lvl 55.
All the way getting laughed at by all the still playing masochists (yeah both of them) only to find out its the early EQ war - mnk dilemma all over again but with war -pal/dk.

Similar issues with clerics, although not that glaring, for full potential they were wanted to go melee mode while your bloodmage pal just laid back and out-damaged and -healed them on almost every mob easily. Still they were viable healers though.
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I don't think anyone is saying Vanguard class balance was perfect in every specific instance, or at all, really. I think people are saying overall the classes were well designed, the approach to keep defined roles active but make more classes able to fill those roles, and the general fun-factor of the combat and classes was a big improvement over what we've seen in most similar style games.

There will always be reasons for isolated incidences of butt-hurtitude. Just because you played an underpowered class and the game was screwed such that there weren't resources to address a lot of issues doesn't mean the design philosophy was flawed.

But, please continue, nobody will take away your right to think your personal bad experiences doesn't mean the entire system was flawed and DOOOM.

Also, small pet peeve, but if your blood mages were 'just laid back' by any definition of the term, they were doing it wrong. Good blood mages were close to the action. Better blood mages even melled occasionally since you were usually that close anyhow to make sure Blood Tribute landed on all parties involved. I do find it laugh-worthy how one person will come in butthurt about clerics apparently not being good enough, while others were laughing about how they would be main healer, tank, pulling, everything on their cleric. Sounds to me like class envy got the best of you. Sucks that clerics seemed kind of boring and Blood Mage really was too OP in too many situations, but don't make it sound like the entire system was flawed just because you weren't personally happy.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Merlin_sl said:
Yes, the BM are better classes
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This is the kind of BS that makes for bad discussions and misinformation. Better at what? Just better?! Better at tanking when they got agro? Because I can tell you I had a button on my blood mage that had my invuln and self heal and /g 'I GOT AGRO I'M ABOUT TO DIE' all hotkeyed, because the second I got agro on any meaningful content was 2 seconds before I went wtfsplat. Better at arcane reflect mobs, or magic resist mobs in general, or how about better at mobs where you were actually MISSING your heals?

And a lot of the BMG class envy was from people who never actually played one. When you were on top, everyone thought you were a god (because maybe a little bit you were). But when things didn't go perfectly, it was very quickly not a fun class to be because the time from hero to scapegoat went pretty quick as a blood mage. :p

There were pros and cons, and in general I think Blood Mages were too powerful in too many circumstances. Overall, though, all Vanguard healers were viable, brought different tools to the table, and were fun to play, which if you ask me is a revelation in game design compared to the alternatives we've gotten in other games.

But, again, we're talking overall game design and philosophy, not individual, isolated aspects where it's pretty easy to get into semantics that miss the forest for the trees.
 
Abefroman

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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pharmakos_sl said:
you make a good point about modern data mining. i hope, though, that the Pantheon team comes up with a good way to obfuscate things. not procedurally generated content, because that usually ends up being lame. and some sort of intelligent design that is intuitive without being easily reduced to numbers and algorithms.

everquest dragons/gods respawning exactly 7 days after death was sort of lame. instead of making them rare on a purely timer basis, make them triggered somehow. but make the trigger mechanic something that is unknown and not obvious, but something that can accidentally happen from time to time. like an arcane ritual that can be stumbled across serendipitously, but still requires careful planning and preparation to trigger once the exact mechanics are figured out.

of course the random number generator has to come in somewhere (this whole genre was founded on dice rolls), but don't rely on them too heavily. or too little.

i am semi drunk so sorry if i'm just contributing to the noise more than the signal here

i am just extremely hopeful that this game will be magical.
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You have to pick your poison. Go the gw2 way and release buggy content that is a surprise or wow style that is data mined. As long add this game tries something different it will be a success. Problem is the audience that cries for something different really wantsa time travel device to1999.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Tuco_sl said:
joking: All social mobs, when they have LOS to a KOS intruder should ring a bell and the entire group should band together.
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Truly social mobs should tweet that you're trying to pull them so all their friends get notifications there's a flash-mob about to go down. #socialmediaintegration
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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calla_sl said:
the basic gist of the animosity towards sillius stems from his constant snide and dismissive replies to people who posted about issues in game...
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This, times a million.

He seemed to be arrogant, as if his VERY minor exploits on a game like Vanguard mean he was hot shit and could treat everyone else, including a small and shrinking playerbase, like shit. Not just generally, but specifically in the forums being an asshole to people. Even still, all his questionable decisions and immersion-breaking bullshit aside, just about everything is eventually forgivable to gamers if you're just not a fucking asshole about it. But the killer is that on top of a lot of questionable decision making and what seemed like power going to his head, Sillius had the bedside manner of a turd rotting in a bedpan.

Basically, it wasn't even that he usually seemed like a worthless dev, but just as often seemed pretty worthless as a human being.

And wasn't he responsible for Slappy the Cool? Because THAT is the kind of shit development time needs to be spent on when your game is sinking. That's the thing, though, he didn't seem to care that the game was a sinking ship, and instead thought it was awesome he got to be the Captain.

 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Mr Creed_sl said:
Crowd control, how can this be improved upon from the EQ model? Since I only dabbled in VG until level 10 I have no clue about their version(s), any big differences or similar?
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The EQ model was good for crowd control not so much imo because of the abilities of classes, but dungeon layout and mob power. When you went into a fight, you had to worry some, plan, form a strat, etc. I think the reactive aspects were great in EQ, but the proactive CC ended up being broken. There were too many mechanics where you'd end up with a solo pull and no lingering mob agro.

That was the difference I liked in Vanguard. Instead of ending up with solo pulls and mobs mem-wiped and waiting their turn to get solo pulled, you more ended up with solo pulls with more mobs incoming in a matter of time. There were more pre-combat ways to not lock down mobs, but delay the inevitable agro, which to me was cool. There were more fights where during incoming you had multiple other classes adding CC.

EQ seemed too far to either extreme. You either went to great lengths to pull unencumbered solos, meaning the other mobs weren't inevitably incoming. Or you pulled or broke a room and trusted an enchanter to lock them all down.

Vanguard there were usually more options, and more situations. Sometimes it was worth the time and effort to get a mob solo. Sometimes you'd just jump in an AOE shit. Sometimes you'd have the rogue sneak up, sap a mob, then have the DK do their port-to-mob-and-cc ability, then you'd kill the third mob know the other two were still agro. There just seemed to be more variation than at least the early days of EQ, but not to the point where every class could cc everything or every fight was trivial. I guess it was a lot more temporary CC instead of less permanent CC?

I think the mob-to-player balance could have been tweaked some in Vanguard, though. Too often you didn't really feel desperate to CC, and instead just let chaos reign figuring you'd win anyhow. In the early days before player power got too high, or in more challenging situations, though, it was a very fun, with a good mix of multiple classes having to use multiple abilities to keep mobs occupied long enough a fight was winnable. I found it more fun that waiting for solo pulls or relying on a good enchanter to simply lock an entire group of mobs down, as there were more players contributing in more ways to a wider variety of CC.
 
Laura

Laura

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Am I the only one who despises pop-culture references in an high fantasy RPG? (Like modern dance moves).
 
K

Kiernen

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Laura_sl said:
Am I the only one who despises pop-culture references in an high fantasy RPG? (Like modern dance moves).
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No, you're definitely not alone on that one. At first when I saw them in WoW, I thought it was cool. But it's just become way too overdone. The quests in FFXIV (especially the public group quests) are a veritable catalog of '80s pop song references -- it's annoying.
 
T

Troy_Costisick_sl

shitlord
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Muligan_sl said:
This... Seen the day EQII gave experience for discoveries I thought this same thing. Especially if you could somehow work ships and navigation into the game, could you imagine how cool maps, compasses, and other tools would be if they were essential to survival and quality of life?
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I did love how EQ2 gave experience for discovering new areas. It was a way to earn XP outside of combat, which was very nice. Pantheon should do that too.
 
T

Tol_sl

shitlord
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Laura_sl said:
Am I the only one who despises pop-culture references in an high fantasy RPG? (Like modern dance moves).
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I liked some of the EQ references because they weren't completely in your face, and most players would just outright miss them. I dislike when a game throws it in your face constantly and beats it into your head to make sure you 'get it'.
 
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